[oldmp3]

First post - received my new SongTowers just a few days ago and have been experimenting with placement. 

As suggested, I tried out the demo cd as one of the first bits of music and was very impressed with the imaging, sound stage, and dynamic range of the STs.  Clicking through many of my other albums, however, I was aware of a "lack" - of presence, detail, and imaging in the reproduction.  At first I was asking myself if the STs just were not living up to my admittedly high expectations, or speaker placement was wrong, or my AVR wasn't pushing enough power, etc.

But continuing to listen to other albums and artists I found some produced a feeling of "liveness" or "presence" and "placement" in the field of sound.  with others I felt "removed" from the sound, almost as if the music was coming from a single source with a greatly diminished sound stage and no placement of instruments and vocalists.

I've read just enough of the audio mags, forums, etc. to hope I'm using these rather subjective terms appropriately and that others will understand what I mean by them.

Finally, I came back to what folks have said about the SongTowers (and other good speakers).  They can reproduce a recording quite accurately, without emphasizing, reducing, or coloring certain characteristics.  If I'm accustomed to listening to these same recordings with less accurate speakers, I may notice some undesirable changes if/when I switch to excellent speakers.

This is a long way of saying that I now agree with others who have suggested that very good recordings (throughout the entire chain from studio, microphones, mixing, mastering, etc.) will benefit.  Poor recordings (small dynamic range/clipping, studio techniques, mixing, etc.) will suffer.

I'm very pleased with the SongTowers, but now there are two problems: 1. Some recordings I don't like as much  , and 2. Quality of the recording is now an important factor in music selection  .

Although this topic may not be limited to the Salk forum, I'd be most interested to know about other Salk owner experiences in this area.

[TONEPUB]

A Manley Massive Passive mastering equalizer will set you free.....

[BradJudy]

A Manley Massive Passive mastering equalizer will set you free.....

Aren't those ~$4k?  Seems unlikely that someone who spent $2k on speakers and is using an AVR for power would drop $4k for an EQ system. 

[AliG]

oldmp3, didn't anyone warn you about the danger of stepping into audiophile territories  

The difference between audiophile-grade system and the average Sony/Bose from BestBuy is:

- With Bose, all music sound reasonably good and consistent, from a scale of 1 to 10, both bad and good recordings will sound like a 5 or 6.

- With audiophlie-grade system, good recording will sound like a 10, and bad recording will sound like a 2.

Audiophiles spent a lot of money because they want to experience the "10", and they're willing to just forget about the "2".

[MaxCast]

Do you still have your old speakers?  It would be interesting to see if you still "don't like [those recordings] as much" with your old speakers again.  I think you will.  Once you hear what you haven't it is hard to go back.  We are at the mercy of recording engineers.  

I have found I have to forget the audiophile stuff and just enjoy the music when I listen to "lesser" speakers or poorly recorded music.  There are some poorly recorded music I don't listen to anymore, but I have found some great new stuff as well.

[oldmp3]

I must admit my expections for the SongTowers were high, perhaps even improvements "across the board" of what I listen to.   

Maxcast, I wish I did have the old speakers to compare (PSB B25s).  And I like your advice to "just enjoy the music" regardless of the equipment.

[martyo]

Hi "oldmp3". I've had HT3's for a little over a year. I know exactly what you are experiencing, you can read the thread about my journey if you care to: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57534.0

I also expected good results across the board. Max gives good advice. 
The better the source, the more the allusion of real music happening takes place, I hear instruments and voices, etc., not the set or the source. So for me there are 10's, and 9's, and 8's and so on, and then there are those that seem to only make it in the car anymore. But as has already been said, I'm not willing to give anything back for a little masking.

I'm extremely happy with it all these days but at first it was very bitter-sweet.
There is a lot of well recorded music out there, I've spent more on music in the last year than the proceeding 15, but it's true, we are at the engineers mercy.

And you do seem to have the terminology down just fine. 

Welcome, good luck, and HAPPY LISTENING 

[jsalk]

oldmp3 -

One question I have to ask is whether or not (based on your screen name) you are listening to MP3's or CD's.  If you are listening to MP3's, that will really compromize things.  Just a thought...

- Jim

[Wayner]

I have filtered out my musical catalog because of that reason. To be on Wayner's shelves, the recording has to be music that is to my liking and music that is recorded very well. I'll even take stuff recorded well that is not quite up to my likings (but tolerable).

I don't understand recording artists that can't produce a good recording. Why bother recording if all you want to be is an entertainer. This has always been my stand on pre-recorded music in either medium, LP or CD or even FM(HD). Get it right or get out!

There are a few of my albums that I keep because of their place in history, but absolutely just fall on the floor. No dynamics, no stereo effect, no nice natural reverb. Just plain horrible....why bother?

Wayner

[oldmp3]

Marty, glad to know I'm not alone - read your thread carefully and will be learning from those very articulate comments.    There are so many variables here - human, emotional, source, room acoustics, etc. and "accurate reproduction" is only one.   In the end, the music must transport us.   The journey is in getting to the 8's, 9's, and 10's which take us there.

Jim, the screen name is misleading.  I had a conversion a while back and it's all apple lossless now.  Although I couldn't ABX WAV vs. MP3 VBR, I felt losing any part of the spectrum just wasn't necessary.  Even though in my age bracket >16kHz is often a faint memory.    Received the curly cherry SongTowers and SongCenter last week and can't remember the last time I had so much fun opening big cardboard boxes!  Beautiful build quality and fantastic sound.   Listening to the demo cd first as you suggest is really the way to go.

Wayner, Guess I'll be learning to be more selective.  So much music, so little time.  I'm most bothered by the what's been called the Loudness Race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war).  Doubtful this will change for "popular" music.

Mark

[charmerci]

For me the music is what is most important. So my priority is the best performances with sound that's acceptable. But given that there has been so much great music recorded since the sound recording technology has been good, there is a lot out there to satisfy both. You must have already seen this -

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63936.msg581356#msg581356

Some of the best sounding recordings and performances I've heard are jazz recordings from Contemporary Records as early as 1960. Isn't that the fun part of this? The hunt for not only the best performances but the best performances with the best sound. It's like finding gold, baby!

[adydula]

This is kind of why I started the thread about Great Demo CDs for your ST's etc..

I have hundreds of CDs and many are not that great recording wise, good tunes but not that great sounding...

But there are lots of very well recorded and mastered CD's that have wonderful dynamic range and make me smile alot....

Take a look at the thread, several members have posted their demo favorites and I have bought a few new artists recordings and have been re-discovering the music....

I cant wait for my SongTowers to arrive!!!

All the best
Alex

[oneinthepipe]

I still listen to some poorly recorded CDs and LPs.  Although not as enjoyable as a good recording, I don't have too much choice if I want to listen to a particular artist and can't find a better recording.  If anyone knows of any high-quality Dionne Warwick recordings, please let me know.  (I tried to ask her "psychically," but she hasn't responded yet.)   

[Nuance]

Here is my perspective, although I am probably in the minority:

In the past all of my recordings sounded average, and I got used to it.  So imagine my surprise, like you, when I found out first hand that well recorded material really does sound better, and more natural and accurate speakers will reveal this to you, while also revealing the flaws of lesser recordings.  I have a LOT of poor to average recorded material, and I've been listening to it on poor to average speakers for most of my life.  In lieu of that, it still sounds poor through the ST's, but it doesn't matter because it's really no different than what it was, I actually hear more subtleties and things I hadn't in the past, but I also hear more flaws.  It's kind of a wash, so I will NOT let it ruin the experience for me, because the only reason I have "hi-fi" speakers is because I LOVE music.  No hi-fi speaker, no matter how well it reveals the flaws of a recording, will force me to stop listening to the songs I've grown to love throughout my life.  If those tracks can give a 16 year old kid goose bumps while listening on crappy car speakers, the ST's will reproduce those sounds and feelings with ease. 

In short, poor recordings don't sound good, but they never did.  On the other hand, those average to good recordings now sound AMAZING, so it's all good. 

[oldmp3]

...
In short, poor recordings don't sound good, but they never did.  On the other hand, those average to good recordings now sound AMAZING, so it's all good. 

Nuance, I think you've said it well. 

I followed your speaker quest thread over at avsforum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069) and certainly learned a lot, and eventually to the SongTowers.

[bummrush]

i wont get into what percentage of my cd's sound good,but just say i think its really quite high.what i want to know is why is there so much variability in the bass,this may sound stupid but are bass qualities harder to capture accurately or what,I don't notice those differences at all in the midrange or highs.

[Mag]

i wont get into what percentage of my cd's sound good,but just say i think its really quite high.what i want to know is why is there so much variability in the bass,this may sound stupid but are bass qualities harder to capture accurately or what,I don't notice those differences at all in the midrange or highs.

I don't know the reason but there is a difference in bass performance between 2 ch stereo and MC stereo, with my system. MC being better at omni-directional bass. 2 ch sounding homogenized.  Assuming the speakers are full range and capable of handling the entire sound spectrum, and the room acoustics are good and quality source.
It could be because:
Bass takes way more power to produce low freq. putting strain on amps ability.
Cut off freq.
MC disperses the bass more evenly throughout the room. And bass freq. are routed to sub taking power strain off the amp/s.
MC matrix es the bass differently

[BobM]

It's funny what people consider a "good quality recording" also.

- Some say it can only be the traditional 2 crossed mikes in a live room kind of thing. This has its appeal for some types of music, but doesn't necessarily work for all.
- Some close miked music sounds great, if artificial to some degree. These can have more presence, and dynamic and sound better than real. But they don't usually sound like a "real" room.
- Some like electronica, where things are bouncing around and phase issues can make it sound like Yoda in a swordfight.
- Some like and some hate the dreaded drumset across the whole sound spectrum, with cymbals 12 feet apart.

I personally find each has its own place. After all, it's still music that can be enjoyed. There are no absolutes there IMO. As long as it is recorded and mastered well, and there is no egregious amount of compression, and it doesn't sound like a flat piece of paper (i.e. has some depth of image) I think it could qualify.

Otherwise I will usually only listen and enjoy it on my poretable over headphones and not on the main rig.

Enjoy,
Bob

[charmerci]

i wont get into what percentage of my cd's sound good,but just say i think its really quite high.what i want to know is why is there so much variability in the bass,this may sound stupid but are bass qualities harder to capture accurately or what,I don't notice those differences at all in the midrange or highs.

I find it's the piano that most difficult to get right.

[TJC712]

i wont get into what percentage of my cd's sound good,but just say i think its really quite high.what i want to know is why is there so much variability in the bass,this may sound stupid but are bass qualities harder to capture accurately or what,I don't notice those differences at all in the midrange or highs.

I find it's the piano that most difficult to get right.

I agree with you here.  I listen to some recordings where all starts off well and then the piano piece comes in where some of the notes sound distorted or "un-clear".  Definitely notice it now thru the ST's on tracks I never noticed before.  And No, I don't believe that its a matter of me listening more clearly or anything like that.  Just seems that flaws are now revealed more on piano notes than other instruments.  I'm glad that you mentioned this... was wondering the same thing over the past week or so.