Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain

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kmanusa

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Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« on: 1 Feb 2009, 08:16 pm »
I am planning on biamping my Infinity loudspeakers with a 4B ST on top.  I am considering using an earlier version of the 4B (e.g., NRB or maybe earlier) for the bass and wondering what, if any, differences there were in voltage gain between the early 4B, 4B NRB, and 4B ST.  I am only concerned with the unbalanced inputs.  It appears the 4B ST and SST have the same gain through the unbalanced inputs (29 dB).   A Stereophile review of the 4B NRB measured a voltage gain of 30dB.  Was the voltage gain supposed to be constant for the 4B series of amps?

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #1 on: 1 Feb 2009, 08:26 pm »
I am planning on biamping my Infinity loudspeakers with a 4B ST on top.  I am considering using an earlier version of the 4B (e.g., NRB or maybe earlier) for the bass and wondering what, if any, differences there were in voltage gain between the early 4B, 4B NRB, and 4B ST.  I am only concerned with the unbalanced inputs.  It appears the 4B ST and SST have the same gain through the unbalanced inputs (29 dB).   A Stereophile review of the 4B NRB measured a voltage gain of 30dB.  Was the voltage gain supposed to be constant for the 4B series of amps?

Hi kmanusa,

The Bryston amplifiers before the ST versions did have a gain of 30dB.

james



kmanusa

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #2 on: 1 Feb 2009, 08:33 pm »
Thanks, James, for the quick response from someone who knows the facts, that is why I love this forum!

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #3 on: 2 Feb 2009, 08:18 pm »
Thanks, James, for the quick response from someone who knows the facts, that is why I love this forum!

Hi kamanusa,

May I ask what Infinitys you have?  I have a pair of 9 Kappas and will be upgrading my electronics to 7B SST2's, BP26 and BCD-1 soon.  If you have the 9's or 8's I'd be interested to know how they sound with your Bryston gear.  Thanks.

Bill

kmanusa

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #4 on: 2 Feb 2009, 10:54 pm »
Thanks, James, for the quick response from someone who knows the facts, that is why I love this forum!

Hi kamanusa,

May I ask what Infinitys you have?  I have a pair of 9 Kappas and will be upgrading my electronics to 7B SST2's, BP26 and BCD-1 soon.  If you have the 9's or 8's I'd be interested to know how they sound with your Bryston gear.  Thanks.

Bill

Hi Bill, I have RS-4.5s.  I can run them full range or biamp them.  For now, I will run a 4B-ST full range and later on put a second 4B on the bass sections.  What are you currently running with your Kappas?

Keith

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #5 on: 3 Feb 2009, 02:37 pm »
I bought the 9 Kappas new in 1990.  At the time the dealer was highly recommending a pair of Adcom GFA 555's which I bought at the same time.  I started out using them in bridged mono mode but the Kappas as you may know have some nasty impedence behavior in the low frequencies dipping at one point to .8 ohms.  As a result I was blowing fuses occaisionally so I switched to bi-amp which has worked flawlessly ever since.  The Adcoms have done a very admirable job of handling these speakers but I  always wondered what they would sound like with better amplification.  I've pretty much decided to upgrade to a pair of 7B's, BP26 and BCD-1 so we'll see.  I love these speakers and hope it works out as I don't have any way to audition in advance of purchase.  If not, I'll start shopping for new speakers that work well with the Bryston gear and sell the 9's.

kmanusa

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #6 on: 3 Feb 2009, 10:55 pm »
Hi Bill.  Good luck with the 7Bs and the Kappas.  The 7Bs are much better suited to driving low impedance loads than the 4B so I think they should work out fine for you.  The RS-4.5s use the Watkins woofer for which, in this application, the impedance gets down to just below 2 ohms although mine measure a little higher.  I think the 4B should work out ok on the RS-4.5s although 2 4Bs (biamped) should be better.

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #7 on: 4 Feb 2009, 12:21 am »
Thanks for the input and well wishes, Keith.  One thing still baffles me about an amp's ability to drive low impedence loads is the notion that the amp should double the power as the impedence halves.  This is supposed to be indicative of high current delivery capability as the load changes.  Yet I see amps like the 7/14B that only increase 50% from 8 to 4 ohms and actually decrease by about 30% into 2 ohms.  I've even read Jim Thiel make this statement when describing a high current amp that would be suitable to drive his CS3.7's while citing Bryston as a favored amp vendor (see James' description of the Thiel room at CES this year).  Confusing to say the least.  How does the 7B do so well given this paradox?

Bill

kmanusa

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #8 on: 4 Feb 2009, 12:50 am »
Bill, I seem to recall that early versions of the 7B allowed the user to strap the 2 amplifier sections per channel in either a series or parallel mode.  The parallel mode allowed for high current operation into very low impedances while the series mode was able to produce very high power into higher impedances.  This gave the user flexibility to configure the amps depending on what kind of speakers he had.  I just checked the Bryston site and it appears the 7B SST does not offer this feature any more.  Instead, it appears to be available as a factory configurable option.  If you are getting 7B SSTs you might want to check it out.  But the standard 7B SST still does very well into impedances of more than 2 ohms.

I am sure James Tanner can give a much better description of what these amps can do.

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #9 on: 4 Feb 2009, 02:39 pm »
Yes, I did PM James about this a while back.  He recommended using series configurations as the nominal impedence on the Kappas is 4-6 ohms.  He stated the low frequencies are a very easy duty cycle for the 7B.  It's the conflicting claims in the marketplace (not by Bryston) about high current capability into lower impedences as it relates to the power ratings specifications that is puzzling to those of us that are not electrical engineers.  But, that's a topic for another thread.  Nice talking to you Keith and good luck with your 4B's.

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #10 on: 5 Feb 2009, 10:13 pm »
Thanks for the input and well wishes, Keith.  One thing still baffles me about an amp's ability to drive low impedence loads is the notion that the amp should double the power as the impedence halves.  This is supposed to be indicative of high current delivery capability as the load changes.  Yet I see amps like the 7/14B that only increase 50% from 8 to 4 ohms and actually decrease by about 30% into 2 ohms.  I've even read Jim Thiel make this statement when describing a high current amp that would be suitable to drive his CS3.7's while citing Bryston as a favored amp vendor (see James' description of the Thiel room at CES this year).  Confusing to say the least.  How does the 7B do so well given this paradox?

Bill


Hi Bill;
 
The 'paradox' is only apparent, not real. The correct answer is to go back to what an amplifier 'does for a living', i.e., what is its design goal?  Its actual task of course is to amplify a musical signal and present it to loudspeakers in such a way that there is nothing audibly added to or subtracted from.  No noise, no distortion, just the music with all its subleties and nuances intact.
 
The fact that this is an extremely challenging goal is evident in several ways:  First, music is an exquisitely complex and dynamic phenomenon.  It's freqency range spans over a 1000:1 ratio, its dynamics range over ratios of many millions-to-one, and music changes many times per millisecond. It is by definition never static, always in flux, always changing. 
 
Second, a loudspeaker is itself a very changeable entity, with impedance spans of many Ohms, dynamic back-forces, energy-storage, phase-shifts over the frequency range, and altering with temperature as well. With almost no exceptions, loudspeakers range from the extreme low of a couple of Ohms, up to a few tens of Ohms over their working frequency range, with combinations of reactances and resistances in that impedance curve.  That's what the amplifier has to deal with.
 
Third, of course we have seen over many years one or another supposed 'final answer' to amplifier design come along, again and again, and ultimately lose favor, again and again.  It always turns out that the simple assumptions are not complete, not necessarily valid, and that if some is good, more is not better forever.  Slew rate was once taken to an extreme, with manufacturers claiming 1000V/uS was necessary for music reproduction. MOSFETS outputs were considered the 'only' way to go for a while.  Tube vs. transistors was a hot topic for a long time.  Now we have some manufacturers claiming that an amplifier has to 'double' its power rating every time the impedance is halved, down to 1 Ohm, or 1/2 Ohm, or whatever extreme impedance level is in fashion this year.  (The amplifiers described this way don't actually double their power capacity with each halving of impedance, of course; the laws of physics always subtract substantial losses for heat and unavoidable resistances in the power train.  The maunfacturers just measure the power at the lowest impedance they wish to advertise, and then cut their published rating in half for each doubling of the impedance, going up). 
 
As mentioned above, loadspeakers operate over known impedance ranges.  An amplifier has to drive them with preferably inaudible distortions over that whole range.  Loudspeakers can display narrow-band dips in impedance to a couple of Ohms, so an amplifier has to have current reserves to handle them without distortion.  Bryston amplifiers have output stages that can deliver pulses of current up to the limits required by a 2-Ohm full-band load on a dynamic basis, with real music.  The output stages, power-supplies and heatsinking have been designed to an optimum size range to handle those musical demands.  The steady-state power output is not as high as the dynamic power, however.

A 4B SST2, for instance, is rated conservatively at 300 Wpc at 8 Ohms, 500 at 4 Ohms. Close to double, but not quite.  We could theroetically rate the amplifier at 250 Ohms into 8 Ohms so it would seem to 'double' at 4 ohms, to 500, but that just seems like gamesmanship, not honest ratings.  And, although the amplifier can indeed deliver pulses of over 1000 Watts into 2-Ohm loads, its 2-Ohm steady-state measurements would be quite a bit lower.  In order to supply 1000 or more Watts steady-state into 2 Ohms, the size, weight, cost and number of output devices would need to double, and double again for 1-Ohm ratings.  A 4B SST would then weigh 200 pounds, be the size of a coffee-table, and cost $16,000.  But here is the important part:  It would NOT sound better on real-world loudspeakers!  In fact, with the increase in number of output transistors that would be required, the HF distortion and transient response could suffer.
 
Bryston makes an amplifier that costs $16,000 and weighs 200 pounds for a stereo pair; it's called the 28B SST2. It's made to drive loudspeakers rated from 4 to 8 Ohms, with lots of provision for impedance dips to 2 Ohms or lower.  It took a lot of time to figure out how to provide audibly perfect transparency at very low to very high output levels with its large and complex output stage.  We could have designed that exact amplifier package to be rated at 1000 Watts into 1 Ohm, 500 into 2, 250 into 4 and 125 Watts into 8 Ohms. What would it have sounded like on a real-world loudspeaker?  Like a 125-Watt amplifier, naturally.  Instead, we think the real 28B is the most accurate, most musical, most dynamically thrilling and riveting amplifier made, period.  And an awful lot of reviewers seem to agree.
 
My point is that, for equivalent 8-Ohm ratings, I will stack any Bryston amplifier up to any other product, and it will much more than hold its own.  There will indeed be amps that are much larger, much heavier and much more expensive for the same 8-Ohm rating, but they will not sound more musically accurate, I guarantee it.  And that is the whole point of designing amps. It's all about the music.
 
I hope the above is helpful, but please let me know if you have any other questions.  Thanks for thinking of Bryston!
 
Chris Russell

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston 4B Series - Voltage Gain
« Reply #11 on: 6 Feb 2009, 02:25 pm »
Thanks James.  That was extremely helpful.  It confirmed my suspicions that manufacturers manipulate this spec by under rating their 8 ohm output.  You can see it in the actual measurements that publications like "Stereo Review" and "Soundstage" report with their reviews of the amplifier products.  It would be very easy based on the 7/14B actual measurements for Bryston to publish 500 watts into 8 ohms and 1000 watts into 4 ohms but that wouldn't be consistent with Bryston's approach to the market.  For my purposes I would never be interested in an amp that required a crane to put it in place and would then compete with the wood burning stove to heat the room!  All in all the Bryston design philosophy has made more and more sense to me as I educated myself along the way.

Bill