[pardales]

This seems to be an interesting and honest appraisal , as far as it goes.

Suppose you were going to buy a car. You test drive one then another. For arguments sake, lets say you were impressed by both but bought one for whatever reason- perhaps it was less expensive.

Now, if only you could have purchased both cars, I'm of the opinion that you would have ended up preferring one over the other for reasons not readily apparent in the test drive. Perhaps the same thing would happen with toasters.

The test drive ( with anything) can't possibly simulate the myriad of ways anything will be used, or resonded to, over the long run. Experience with something usually defines its usefulness or appropriateness for each individual.

So, IMO, short evaluations  are best to demonstrate rather substantial differences between things. In audio, subtle differences are basically the name of the game ( excepting loudspeakers) . The standard for something being *better*or *different*( assuming enough power etc.)is  often rather small and elusive.

So, given time, different electronics etc. would the results be different. I really don't know but it may be the only real way for an audiophile to determine whether any expenditure is really worth it to the only person that counts, THEM.

Nicely said.

[Philistine]

This seems to be an interesting and honest appraisal , as far as it goes.

Suppose you were going to buy a car. You test drive one then another. For arguments sake, lets say you were impressed by both but bought one for whatever reason- perhaps it was less expensive.

Now, if only you could have purchased both cars, I'm of the opinion that you would have ended up preferring one over the other for reasons not readily apparent in the test drive. Perhaps the same thing would happen with toasters.

The test drive ( with anything) can't possibly simulate the myriad of ways anything will be used, or resonded to, over the long run. Experience with something usually defines its usefulness or appropriateness for each individual.

So, IMO, short evaluations  are best to demonstrate rather substantial differences between things. In audio, subtle differences are basically the name of the game ( excepting loudspeakers) . The standard for something being *better*or *different*( assuming enough power etc.)is  often rather small and elusive.

So, given time, different electronics etc. would the results be different. I really don't know but it may be the only real way for an audiophile to determine whether any expenditure is really worth it to the only person that counts, THEM.

Nicely said.

If you hear a difference straight away and say WOW - it's worth the money.
If it's so subtle that you have to strain to hear it - it's not worth the money.

This simple guide stops audiophiles becoming audiofools, I've been known to stray from these rules

[satfrat]

This seems to be an interesting and honest appraisal , as far as it goes.

Suppose you were going to buy a car. You test drive one then another. For arguments sake, lets say you were impressed by both but bought one for whatever reason- perhaps it was less expensive.

Now, if only you could have purchased both cars, I'm of the opinion that you would have ended up preferring one over the other for reasons not readily apparent in the test drive. Perhaps the same thing would happen with toasters.

The test drive ( with anything) can't possibly simulate the myriad of ways anything will be used, or resonded to, over the long run. Experience with something usually defines its usefulness or appropriateness for each individual.

So, IMO, short evaluations  are best to demonstrate rather substantial differences between things. In audio, subtle differences are basically the name of the game ( excepting loudspeakers) . The standard for something being *better*or *different*( assuming enough power etc.)is  often rather small and elusive.

So, given time, different electronics etc. would the results be different. I really don't know but it may be the only real way for an audiophile to determine whether any expenditure is really worth it to the only person that counts, THEM.

I swore to myself that I wan't gonna post in this thread but I find the need to respond to this opinion with one of my own. I was told early on from the audio gods that 90% of good audio can be gotten with good gear early on and w/o breaking the bank but as you climb to that last 10%, you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns, or in other words, you end up paying a whole lot for a lot less.   There are many many things that can be catagorized as that last 10%, I feel power cords, actually any cable in general falls into this catagory. My personal opinion is that these little tweaks such as power cords are subtle improvements at best but as with anything, the more of these diminishing return tweaks you add, the more increased % of system performance is realized. So to say upgraded power cords are a costly tweak with little benefit is probably spot on but when taken into account the total system performance of everything else that is done to enhance ones system, it all has an accumulative effect that in the long run does infact improve one's audio quality quite substantially. Whether it's worth it to go after the last 10% of diminishing return gain is really up to the individual. That's my understanding and I have my system as an example of this understanding along with my credit card debt as proof positive of diminishing returns.

Thanks Frank!  

Cheers,
Robin

[Wind Chaser]

The better your system is, the more audible those subtle differences are.  With lesser resolving systems, the less likely you are to notice subtle differences.

I recently bought a used piece of gear from a doctor in his mid 50's who has been into high end audio for the last 30 years.  In our discussion about cables, he held Frank's POV, that cables do not make any difference.  Of course Frank has just opened his mind up to the possibility that they do indeed make a difference, however the doctor wasn't put on the "spot" like Frank, where he'd have to answer to the potential of public embarrassment.  Let's not kid ourselves, ego has a lot to do with audio.

Anyhow I gave the naysaying doctor some wire to check out on his system and a day later he sends me an email telling me how floored he is at the difference.  3 days later I receive another email telling me he is completely floored.  The subtle difference to him, he describes as being a 300% improvement.  I wish I had kept those messages, but I constantly purge my mailbox.

[jhm731]

I swore to myself that I wan't gonna post in this thread but I find the need to respond to this opinion with one of my own. I was told early on from the audio gods that 90% of good audio can be gotten with good gear early on and w/o breaking the bank but as you climb to that last 10%, you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns, or in other words, you end up paying a whole lot for a lot less.   There are many many things that can be catagorized as that last 10%, I feel power cords, actually any cable in general falls into this catagory. My personal opinion is that these little tweaks such as power cords are subtle improvements at best but as with anything, the more of these diminishing return tweaks you add, the more increased % of system performance is realized. So to say upgraded power cords are a costly tweak with little benefit is probably spot on but when taken into account the total system performance of everything else that is done to enhance ones system, it all has an accumulative effect that in the long run does infact improve one's audio quality quite substantially. Whether it's worth it to go after the last 10% of diminishing return gain is really up to the individual. That's my understanding and I have my system as an example of this understanding along with my credit card debt as proof positive of diminishing returns.

Thanks Frank!  

Cheers,
Robin

Excellent post Robin.

Since Frank did hear a difference, I don't see any reason why he couldn't offer an IEC connector on his equipment as an extra cost option for people who want to try different power cords.

I've been using after market and DIY power cords for over 20 years and never had a problem.


PS- here's another low cost PC:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=181-900

[bpape]

I couldn't agree more.  Excellent post Robin and thanks to Frank and Paul for the experiment.

Bryan

[avahifi]

I choose not to provide an IEC power cord connection for two reasons.

First it adds an additional unnecessary set of contacts to the power system.  How many of you have ever had your computer or hard drive just quit in the middle of something because the power cord lost contact?  I have and did not like the result.

Second, inasmuch as we supply the units with polarized two conductor power cords, for both electrical safety and ground loop hum protection, this "feature" would allow circumventing these design safety features.

Maybe you can wire your own power cord and always get the polarity right, but can your brother in law do it too?  We have to protect our customers and thus will not easily allow do it yourself power cords.  They may be fine for you, but not for us as a manufacturer.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[PhilNYC]

Frank...just curious...can you tell us what music you used to do your test, and at what volume (approximately) the music was played at?

[bwaslo]

Hi Frank,

...and my assistant had the opposite opinion) I would look into the issue further

Did your assistant also take a blind test like you did and if so, what was his score in identifying which was which, or which trials used the same cable?  Your 4 out of 4 (or maybe more accurately, 4.5 out of 5?) is impressive, but again it is an extremely small sample size.  I'm sure no one would want to sit and do this for a hundred or more trials, but if your assistant did another 5 trials, it would at least double the sample size.

[martyo]

Hi Frank,

...and my assistant had the opposite opinion) I would look into the issue further

Did your assistant also take a blind test like you did and if so, what was his score in identifying which was which, or which trials used the same cable?  Your 4 out of 4 (or maybe more accurately, 4.5 out of 5?) is impressive, but again it is an extremely small sample size.  I'm sure no one would want to sit and do this for a hundred or more trials, but if your assistant did another 5 trials, it would at least double the sample size.

I pulled this from Franks explanation of his testing procedures;

In contrast, when I repeated the test with three tries with my assistant, he liked the stock power cord better.

[BobM]

I think Frank has answered this sufficiently without beating it to death. There were perceived differences, but they did not overwhelm him to a degree sufficient to change his priorities as a manufacturer. That doesn't mean these differences would not be important to you as a consumer and obsessive/compulsive audiophile. Unfortunately for AVA owners, Frank has decided not to implement an IEC and has stated his reasons quite nicely, I thought.

The decision to use an upscale aftermarket power cord for any component is still yours, whether that can be easily accomplished via a cable swap, or via a mod to install an IEC.

Thanks everyone for keeping all of this civil and open-minded.

Bob

[turkey]

Then we ran a five test blind evaluation.  My assistant was told to connect one of the DACs making sure I could not tell which was connected.  The music was then started and I listened.  After each test my assistant was told to either change DACs or not change DACs as he felt like it, except for the last test he was told to definitely change DACs, but never would I know from what to what. I made notes as follows after each of five tests.

It doesn't sound like a true double blind test. Could you possibly have been picking up on cues from your assistant?

[turkey]

Unfortunately for AVA owners, Frank has decided not to implement an IEC and has stated his reasons quite nicely, I thought.

I don't feel it's unfortunate. I don't particularly want an IEC socket.

I've done my own sighted tests with power cords and heard zero difference. (Frank heard no difference in a sighted test either.)

Given the lack of positive results, I am not terribly motivated to do any further, more rigorous testing of power cords. I'd much rather listen to music than to power cords.

I have also had several people demonstrate fancy power cords to me. In each case I have not heard the things that the other person heard (or thought they heard).

[satfrat]

Unfortunately for AVA owners, Frank has decided not to implement an IEC and has stated his reasons quite nicely, I thought.

I don't feel it's unfortunate. I don't particularly want an IEC socket.

I've done my own sighted tests with power cords and heard zero difference. (Frank heard no difference in a sighted test either.)

Given the lack of positive results, I am not terribly motivated to do any further, more rigorous testing of power cords. I'd much rather listen to music than to power cords.

I have also had several people demonstrate fancy power cords to me. In each case I have not heard the things that the other person heard (or thought they heard).

Good for you turkey.

[wilsynet]

After trying a number of cords, ICs, and speaker cables over the past two years, what I've found is that in the vast majority of cases these things make very little difference.  Changes to electronics, tubes, and room acoustics all make, in my opinion, a more meaningful change. 

[ Insofar as my own experience takes me, where there are more substantial changes in sound from ICs and speaker cables, I generally find that, long term, I like the cheaper cables better anyway. ]

However, after reading countless posts about how cables make absolutely no difference, here is a thread where Frank says that he could in fact tell the difference.  The value he places on those differences, that's a subjective thing.  That he could tell the difference, that's very, very objective.

Thanks Frank. 

For those who say that cables make no difference, it would be nice if that condescending, nearly vitriolic cable bashing that sometimes happens, I hope that stops.  I wish some people would stop implying that others only *think* they hear things.  Maybe that's true for the vast majority of cables.  Or maybe it isn't true.  Hey, Frank heard it, and so did his assistant, and it's not his fault that you can't hear it.

As for rigorous A/B testing for everything, I'll challenge you guys to do something.

Take a look at this article:

http://www.fraudwasteabuse.com/2007/04/pepsi-vs-coke.html

I've read about this phenomenon before.  The basic problem comes down to taste memory.  Turns out we're bad at taste memory in the same way that we're bad at auditory memory.  If you were to drink from three similar things (Pepsi vs Coke vs No-Name Brand), it's much more difficult to distinguish the three than if you were to drink from only two things (Pepsi vs Coke).  In fact, if you put three glasses down, but (say) you filled 2 with Pepsi and 1 with Coke, you'd likely have just a difficult time as if you included the no-name brand as the third option.

So yeah, I can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi in a test like this, in a blind A/B(/C) test.  But do I like Coke better than Pepsi?  Yeah, I do like Coke better than Pepsi, and I don't need an A/B test to confirm that for me.

[satfrat]

After trying a number of cords, ICs, and speaker cables over the past two years, what I've found is that in the vast majority of cases these things make very little difference.  Changes to electronics, tubes, and room acoustics all make, in my opinion, a more meaningful change.

However, after reading countless posts about how cables make absolutely no difference, here is a thread where Frank says that he could in fact tell the difference.  The value he places on those differences, that's a subjective thing.  That he could tell the difference, that's very, very objective.

Thanks Frank. 

For those who say that cables make no difference, it would be nice if that condescending, nearly vitriolic cable bashing that sometimes happens, I hope that stops.  I wish some people would stop implying that others only *think* they hear things.  Maybe that's true for the vast majority of cables.  Or maybe it isn't true.  Hey, Frank heard it, and so did his assistant, and it's not his fault that you can't hear it.

As for rigorous A/B testing for everything, I'll challenge you guys to do something.

Take a look at this article:

http://www.fraudwasteabuse.com/2007/04/pepsi-vs-coke.html

I've read about this phenomenon before.  The basic problem comes down to taste memory.  Turns out we're bad at taste memory in the same way that we're bad at auditory memory.  If you were to drink from three similar things (Pepsi vs Coke vs No-Name Brand), it's much more difficult to distinguish the three than if you were to drink from only two things (Pepsi vs Coke).  In fact, if you put three glasses down, but (say) you filled 2 with Pepsi and 1 with Coke, you'd likely have just a difficult time as if you included the no-name brand as the third option.

So yeah, I can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi in a test like this, in a blind A/B(/C) test.  But do I like Coke better than Pepsi?  Yeah, I do like Coke better than Pepsi, and I don't need an A/B test to confirm that for me.

You only "think" you like Coke better,,,, I know that Pepsi's the best. aa

[wilsynet]

First it adds an additional unnecessary set of contacts to the power system.  How many of you have ever had your computer or hard drive just quit in the middle of something because the power cord lost contact?  I have and did not like the result.

Frank, just wondering, what happens to an amplifier or DAC or preamp if it spontaneously loses power?  Also, because the local utility company sometimes has blackouts, should we have uninterruptible power supplies installed in our stereo systems?  I'm just afraid of what the results might be if your equipment loses power suddenly.

[topround]

Deleted

[BobM]

As a bonafide tweaker and DIY'er of all types, the one thing that I have found to be true is that when I make some changes and parts substitutions that each, individually, seems to make very small and slight differences, I find that the cumulative effect of these can often become a large and significant difference. The art in all of this is making the right choices nd selections at the fine detail level so that the larger difference is an improvement. That is often where trial an error and experience make all the difference. As I make these changes and hear these differences/improvements I find that it takes many small and smaller differences to achieve signficant improvements.

I guess what I'm saying is that as a system evolves and gets better it takes more and more small things to add up to a large thing. Cables often fall into that category, and the right cable for a component is often a metter of synergy and controlling and directing the tonal balance and textural palette.

Yes, I hear these things and find them important, for if I ignored them and only looked for individual and larger scale improvement I would be missing the cumulative and important improvement of these smaller things when taken as a whole.

Bob

[JackD201]

The decision not to put an IEC receptacle is Frank's and Frank's alone. His design. His product. His company. More importantly, his vision. That vision being anchored on value. Frank knows diminishing returns and he's found his spot along that curve. I think nobody here can deny that it is one very sweet spot indeed.

I echo the others who congratulate Occam and Frank for giving this a shot, conclusions be damned. There can be no learning without open minds.