[Bill]

  Why don't the testimonials for this (dubious at best) product have names attached? Kinda' curious.

[WGH]

I used Mundorf Silver/Oil and Russian FT-3 teflon caps in my Cornet2. Well respected designers and builders have said these caps can take hundreds of hours to break in and sound their best. That is a lot of albums to spin so I use the FryKleaner to save needle wear and burn in the caps in less than a week.

Wayne

[Bill]

How do you know if they are burned in? And don't say it's a subjective impression. Do you have electrical data to back this up? And capacitors don't need that much time to burn in. You've been had, I'm afraid. Why don't the testimonials have names?

Just trying to protect the innocent and gullible

[WGH]

How do you know if they are burned in?

I don't!

Just like other topics I know little or nothing about, like global warming, I rely on experts in their respective fields and choose the truths I want to believe in.
You can do the same.

Here is one quote from a respected designer that knows a lot more about electronics than I do:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52627.msg470496#msg470496

Break-in is a well worn topic, so you might find this thread informative:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59653.0

Wayne

[jameshuls]

Well, thank goodness Bill got that all cleared up for us. I was under the impression that subjectivity was quite integral to the joy of music. And naturally, science has mastered every discipline, and has in fact bettered the human ear in detection and comprehension of sound. If the instruments don't detect it, then it doesn't exist. Luckily, Billl even knows better than the manufacturers of capacitors themselves how long it takes for their caps to burn-in. Perhaps the manufacturers of Teflon caps who recommend 400+ hours burn-in are in cahoots with Mr. Hagerman! Or maybe they too are deluded and need enlightenment by Bill.

"Humpf!” humpfed a voice! “For almost two days you’ve run wild and insisted On chatting with persons who’ve never existed. Such carryings-on in our peaceable jungle! We’ve had quite enough of your bellowing bungle! And I’m here to state,” snapped the big kangaroo, “That your silly nonsensical game is all through!”
And the young kangaroo in her pouch said, “Me, too!” Horton Hears a Who -Dr. Suess

[GBB]

Well, thank goodness Bill got that all cleared up for us . . .

I agree with the previous poster.  It's in incredibly bad taste to trash someone's products in their own private forum.  It's OK to be skeptical of burn-in but one should have an open mind and do a bit of experimental work to prove or disprove the existence of this effect.  Jim Hagerman goes out of his way to allow people to experiment on the cheap.  He doesn't show it on his website anymore, but you can still download a .wav clip of the burn-in signal at http://www.hagtech.com/media/frykleaner.wav.

Just download this to your computer and burn a CD and then put this on repeat on your CD player.  Then you can decide for yourself if it helps or not.  For the record, my experience has been that it does help - I'm a satisified owner of a Frykleaner Pro.

---Gary

[bluesky]

Actually, I have no problem with someone expressing an opinion that is contrary to my own.  I think people are smart enough to read a variety of opinions and then determine the worth of a particular product.

In respect to myself, I always like to see if there is a broad consensus from different sources about a particular product.  As to burning in, there is a very large number of people who have exprienced this, including myself. 

The Fyrkleaner is worthwhile I believe, and people can make their own choices from the available sources of information and opinions. 

Bluesky

[Bill]

If you tell anyone with an advanced degree in electrical engineering that certain capacitors need 400 hours of burn-in, he or she would laugh at you. What is happening at 400 hours that isn't happening at 399 hours? I know you'll say "I don't know but I can hear it". If someone substituted that miracle cap with a lesser one and didn't tell you, would you hear it? Please give me documentation on the burn-in phenomenon from a reliable source and I'll consider there might be something behind this lunacy.

And who are giving these testimonials? I don't see any names yet.

Bill

[GBB]

If you tell anyone with an advanced degree in electrical engineering that certain capacitors need 400 hours of burn-in, he or she would laugh at you . . .

Bill,
As I stated earlier, I find this thread that you've started to be in poor taste.  If you want to bad mouth a product from Hagerman Technology then you should not do it in the Hagerman Technology forum, which is paid for by Jim Hagerman.  It would be better in another public forum.  But I'll leave it up to Jim as to whether or not he wants to send this thread to the IGWB (Intergalactic Waste Bin).

Regarding advanced degrees in EE - I've got one and I still believe burn-in is a real phenomena.  Not sure I understand why you're so sure that it doesn't occur. 

---Gary

[hagtech]

Bill, I don't mind you posting comments here (that is your real name, right?).  Nothing wrong with a contra position.  But you have to do a little better than that 399/400 argument (pretty lame).

First, a little more about yourself:

1) Do you have an advanced EE or physics degree? 
2) Have you ever experimented with a break-in product? 
3) Why not try that WAV file on your own CD player?  It is free.
4) Are you able to make an honest assessment? 

You are welcome to post here all you want.  If we are gullable lunatics without names, maybe you can save us.

jh

[Bill]

Yes, Bill is my real name and I live in New Mexico. It doesn't matter whether I have experimented with this so-called phenomenon or not. I'm asking you for some documented proof that a capacitor needs 400 hours of break-in. All I'm asking for is what is happening at or during the 400 hour mark.

No I don't have an advanced degree in electrical engineering; that's why I'm asking for feed-back from someone that does. And don't turn this around to see if I have experimented with this. That's lame.

And for those testimonials. Why aren't there names attched to them that would lend a little credibility to the matter.

Bill

[analog97]

Bill,

I really think you should take a step back and relax.  Little is to be gained by pointless confrontation.  I am a PhD biomedical scientist and a born and born again skeptic.  That's the way it should be.  Skepticism drives the machine forward.  I look to this board for their electrical engineering and experience because I am WAY limited in this arena.  That said, I have lots of personal experience with break-in of several components.  There has been much written about the limitations of modern technology to measure this phenomenon and this appears to be a satisfactory answer to me. 

As for signed testimonials, I would be happy to supply my name, degrees, academic affiliation, 150 publications, 40 page cv, etc.  What would this prove?  Anyone looking at it would clearly see it has little (actually NOTHING) to do with analog circuitry design, etc.  This is a hobby to me and I think for most all on this board.  Relax and enjoy. 

[jameshuls]

It is quite likely that the reason for audible break-in periods of capacitors is unknown. The complicating factor, as I acerbically pointed pointed out in my previous post, is that measuring equipment is far less sophisticated than the human hearing and interpretation system. So, although a phenomenon may be audible to an individual, the testing equipment available to a researcher may not detect anything. In fact, they may not even be attempting to detect the proper parameter. However, absence of proof does not imply proof of absence. Only with an open and skeptical mind, can you avoid  delusions and limitations (to your enjoyment).

This article is worth a read:

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html

[rtate]

I own a Frybaby and am more than pleased with the results that it has given me for DIY cables.
My only question regarding capacitor break in or "forming" would be,
If the manufacturers are going to charge us huge amounts of $$ for their premimum caps, why don't they break them in before we get them??

[hagtech]

what is happening at or during the 400 hour mark

I don't actually know.  It just happens.  Would be great to have the time to run a lot of experiments and come up with a reasonable hypothesis, which could then be tested.  For now, I am happy merely to observe the effects.  It is a new front in audio and we are pushing it forward.

Why aren't there names attched to them that would lend a little credibility to the matter?

The testimonials are from customer emails I have received over the years.  They are printed exact, except for where you see me [insert text].  I never bothered to ask permissions, so I leave out the names. 

jh