Questions. . .

timjthomas · « **on:** 24 Jan 2009, 10:50 am »

Hi All,

I've been reading the AVA circle for some time as well as reading up on other sites (e.g., audiogon), and Frank's work seems to be universally praised.

I currently use a Jolida 1701 integrated amp, but am investigated an upgrade. How do Frank's amps compare to the Jolida's (either the 1701 or their more powerful alternatives)?

On similar lines of "upgrading", I am considering moving to all tubes. How do Frank's amps compare to all tube systems? It doesn't appear that he offers tube-only amps, but I'd like the thoughts of those that have had all tube amps (or have heard them) and went with AVA.

Hope this all makes sense.

Thanks!

gjs_cds · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 01:30 pm »

Others will post with more authority than me... but it's been my understanding and experience that Frank's tube gear has all the benefits of tubes, without the negative aspects of "tube-i-ness." (Such as low damping, relatively high S:N.) I think you'll find that his gear is significantly more dynamic and punchy, with all the same tube smoothness.

Interesting to see what others feel as well...

avahifi · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 01:41 pm »

Our Ultra hybrid amplifiers use a triode for the input stage, another triode combined with a power mos-fet for the transimpedance amplifier stage, and a full complimentary power mos-fet output configuration. This preserves the high overload capability of the tube voltage gain section while providing high current drive and low output impedance of the driver section to allow very linear operation into the considerable gate capacitance of the output mos-fets. The relatively unreliable output tubes and expensive and very heavy output transformers are eliminated, with a low output impedance and excellent load driving capability into any rational loudspeaker load.

Many of our clients feels this provides an outstanding compromise of 'tube like" musicality along with the control and dynamic impact of solid state designs. So do we.

Remember that we do offer a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, so all it will cost you if we do not meet your expectations is shipping charges.

Thanks for your interest.

Frank Van Alstine

timjthomas · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 01:52 pm »

Thanks Frank. Are you specifically talking about Fet Valve Ultra amp with an appropriate pre-amp? It does not appear that you have an integrated amp (pre tube w/ SS output).

Any plans for such an integrated amp?

avahifi · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Jan 2009, 03:43 pm »

Actually we do have an integrated amplifier, the Insight Control Amplifier.

It has a passive preamp section with a high gain version of our solid state Insight solid state amplifier circuits. It has all the control functions of an Insight SL preamp.

Because the basic linearlity of the Insight amplifier section is so good, we could increase the gain of this section (to eliminate the need for the gain of a preamp section) by reducing the feedback and yet maintain outstanding control and transparency. This allows the elimination of a preamp section completely (neither solid state or tube stages for this are required).

The result is pretty outstanding musicality and low noise at a reasonable price.

The base price is $1499. A precision motor driven remote control is a $299 option. Call me for more detail. 651-330-9871

Thanks for your interest.

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. I just had another thought about this. For those of you wishing to use a passive preamp in general, but are disappointed by not being able to get things to go loud enough without an active preamp, there is no good reason why we cannot build you any of our Insight basic amplifiers with the same "high gain" configuration as we use in the Insight Control Amp. Call us about this too if you are interested.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Jan 2009, 03:28 am »

Quote from: timjthomas on 24 Jan 2009, 10:50 am

Hi All,

I've been reading the AVA circle for some time as well as reading up on other sites (e.g., audiogon), and Frank's work seems to be universally praised.

I currently use a Jolida 1701 integrated amp, but am investigated an upgrade. How do Frank's amps compare to the Jolida's (either the 1701 or their more powerful alternatives)?

On similar lines of "upgrading", I am considering moving to all tubes. How do Frank's amps compare to all tube systems? It doesn't appear that he offers tube-only amps, but I'd like the thoughts of those that have had all tube amps (or have heard them) and went with AVA.

I have heard several different Jolida models, and I would say no comparison at all, at least to the Jolidas I have heard. I don't know which models they were, but one had 6CA7s and another had 6550s, which would logically be about 25 and maybe 50 watts per channel respectively. All of them were pretty inoffensive but none were any better, or even not as good as, a *stock* ST70 with Pas 2/3. Both tended towards poorly-controlled and sort of boomy low frequencies, and very rolled-off high frequencies. Of course the price is not a lot higher than a mint Pas3/ST-70, either, so it's not all that surprising.

To be entirely honest, at reasonable listening levels, I though the little S5 Industries K-12M kit amp, dead stock, was much more accurate and satisfying than the Jolidas, even at an optimistic 8 watts per. And had the overwhelming advantage of only costing $125*.

Frank's U70 blows either Jolida so far out of the water it's not even worth talking about. I haven't heard and Ultra or Insight, but my Omegastar 260 is noticeably better than the U70. So I think there's really not a lot to talk about here, we are talking Corvette VS Yugo. Maybe some of the other Jolidas (I think there is one with with push-pull 300Bs, but I could be wrong) would do better, but not the models I have heard.

Brett

* past tense because the K-12 has, unfortunately, been discontinued. Both examples of the replacement K-8L that I have heard were absolutely awful, albeit still cheap. I didn't build them so I don't know that they were assembled correctly, but I expect they were since they both sounded the same. bb

timjthomas · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Jan 2009, 09:13 am »

Thanks for the Jolida comparisons Brett! I spoke with Frank briefly and he was very confident that his amps don't have that "antiseptic" SS sound - something I'm trying to avoid.

I've emailed Frank a few more specific questions and hope to hear back soon. (I'll post more after our exchange.)

In the meantime, please keep the responses coming

Has anyone heard Frank's integrated amplifier? Thoughts/comments?

Thanks again!

Tone Depth · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 02:57 am »

Quote from: timjthomas on 25 Jan 2009, 09:13 am

Has anyone heard Frank's integrated amplifier? Thoughts/comments?

On the AVA website, the message is that all of the Insight amplifier models essentially behave the same—musical perfection. http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/insight_amps.htm The same Insight circuitry is used in the Integrated Control Amplifier. Therefore, you should be able to rely on reviews for the other Insight model amps to get a feel for how the Integrated Control Amplifier sounds.

Check out this review of the Insight 240: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61259.0 for example. There's lot of others to find searching or browsing AC or Audio Review.

turkey · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 02:31 pm »

Quote from: timjthomas on 25 Jan 2009, 09:13 am

Thanks for the Jolida comparisons Brett! I spoke with Frank briefly and he was very confident that his amps don't have that "antiseptic" SS sound - something I'm trying to avoid.

I've emailed Frank a few more specific questions and hope to hear back soon. (I'll post more after our exchange.)

In the meantime, please keep the responses coming

I have an Insight DAC and preamp, and an OmegaStar amp. None of them really have much of a "sound." They're all quite neutral. The Insight gear especially does not have any SS sound.

AVA equipment is also made in the US of quality components by workers being paid a living wage. I'd rather spend my money on something like that than on some other products...

timjthomas · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 08:13 pm »

Quote from: turkey on 26 Jan 2009, 02:31 pm

I have an Insight DAC and preamp, and an OmegaStar amp. None of them really have much of a "sound." They're all quite neutral. The Insight gear especially does not have any SS sound.

AVA equipment is also made in the US of quality components by workers being paid a living wage. I'd rather spend my money on something like that than on some other products...

Thanks for the information. I just spoke with Frank and am pretty confident that Insight amps will do the trick. My issue now is deciding on the integrated vs. separate. I like the idea (and cost) of the integrated, but can't get the phono stage then.

I suspect that the change in amps from my current (Jolida) may address the current short comings I have with my speakers. (Not sure until I hear them though.)

Thoughts on the integrated vs. separates? I've got a very cheap phono stage I could continue to use if I had to.

turkey · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 08:50 pm »

Quote from: timjthomas on 26 Jan 2009, 08:13 pm

Thanks for the information. I just spoke with Frank and am pretty confident that Insight amps will do the trick. My issue now is deciding on the integrated vs. separate. I like the idea (and cost) of the integrated, but can't get the phono stage then.

I suspect that the change in amps from my current (Jolida) may address the current short comings I have with my speakers. (Not sure until I hear them though.)

Thoughts on the integrated vs. separates? I've got a very cheap phono stage I could continue to use if I had to.

I'd bet that your speakers will sound a whole lot better than you ever thought they could.

I prefer separates, and it has worked out well for me. I have also found that the Insight phono stage is really quite good.

However, I understand that cost can be a major factor. (It is for me too. I've built my system piece by piece and didn't have to spring for the whole thing at once.)

AVA does have standalone phono preamps. You could get the integrated amp and then add on a phono preamp later.

Or you could get an amp and preamp without phono to save some money, and then have a phono section added to the preamp later.

Does your Jolida integrated amp have preamp output jacks? If so, you could get an AVA amp like the Insight 240 and drive it with the preamp from the Jolida. Then you could get an AVA preamp later.

If you didn't need the phono section, I'd say the AVA integrated amp sounds ideal for you. Since you do want phono, I'm not sure what your most cost-effective route is. Did you ask Frank for his recommendation?

Dan Kolton · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 09:11 pm »

Would be hard pressed to live without phono available!

Wayner · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 09:19 pm »

Frank has the Insight phono section offered in the DAC enclosure for $850. The Insight SL pre with phono would be $1100. Insight 240 is 1k, 260 is 1400 and 440 is 1700. I have the insight EC with tape buffer and Phono plus the Insight 260. Very nice system for about $2850.

Otherwise you could get the Insight Intergrated and the Insight phono for $2350. That has 85 slammin' watts RMS. Plenty of power for rather efficient speakers in a medium sized room.

Wayner

Zheeeem · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 10:36 pm »

Just a general observation. Frank can fit a SS phono in any of the preamps. So, for example, my T7 has an Omega phono section. And I know that Bryan just ordered a T8 with an Insight phono section. It saves a little bit of money, and I understand that the Insight phono section is quite good.

timjthomas · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 11:17 pm »

The cost of the Insight SL Pre w/ Phono and Insight 240 is $2,097. The price of the Insight Control Integrated is $1,499.

So it appears that the extra ~$600 gets me the phono stage and an extra 35w per channel.

The "cons" would be the extra piece of equipment (i.e., separate vs. integrated).

Thoughts / comments? Am I missing anything?

Wayner · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jan 2009, 11:23 pm »

I personally like separates, but it's hard to put ourselves in your shoes. The nice thing about separates is that if you decide later that you want more power, you get a different power amp. Not so easy to do with the intergrated. It's all about your targeted wants. Sorry pal, it's a tough decision, but there really isn't a wrong decision in the long run. I'm sure you will enjoy either pieces.

Wayner

TerryWI · « **Reply #16 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 01:02 am »

First off, I’ve been finding it hard to write some comments without coming off as a starry eyed fan-boy. There is other good equipment that would certainly satisfy me, but just over 4 weeks into owning the Insight EC Pre with phono and remote, DAC and 260 amp, I have finally found what I am looking for!

Here is a short synopsis of some longer comments I’ve been putting together to post a bit down the line. Maybe they will help or at least be of interest -

Frank demoed the integrated for me on his Salk HT-3 speakers. You could hardly vouch better than that in his confidence in the unit at driving a world class speaker. It sounded just great.

The Insight Preamp is insanely good to my ears. And I won’t qualify that by adding “for the money.” This unit is the star of my purchase. It completely opened up the system and let the music come through, often stunningly. The phono stage mates perfectly in the system. It is clearly better with my Grado cartridge than the twice the price, stand alone unit it will replace. I was doubtful because I really liked the stand alone, but once again the designer was accurate in his recommendation.

The Insight 260 amp is the glue that brought it and holds it all together. Grace, power, authority, delicacy with music – it is all there.

I think you are hitting the right points and options and getting a bunch of good comments and experiences from others. I was at a similar point when trying to do my planning and analysis of what would be “best” for my money. I ultimately stretched the initial budget on every piece and option from what I thought would be enough to spend to explore the AVA take on music reproduction. I do not have one iota of regret.

I second Wayner’s summation just above.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #17 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 01:32 am »

I concur with Wayner and TerryWI. If you can pull it off, purchase the separates. For the additional 600.00, you get a great phono stage (200.00 add-on), a more powerful amplifier, and the flexibility of separate components.

If you purchase a specific amp and later decide on another amp, swapping amps will be a lot easier if you have a separate preamp. While you might not anticipate changing amps, you might need a more powerful amp if you change speakers.

I see that you own a JoLida JD100, which is a well-reviewed CDP. Don't overlook the Insight DAC. I used to own a JoLida JD100 with NOS Amperex 7025 tubes. The Insight DAC blew away the JoLida. I sold the JoLida (with full disclosure about my reason for selling) and bought a less expensive CDP that I use as a transport, thereby, theoretically (that means whether my wife gets to the money before me), reducing the overall expenditure of the CDP/DAC. The great Insight preamps and Insight amps will only reproduce the signals that they receive. For vinyl, you will be all set with the Insight preamp's built-in phono stage.

bmckenney · « **Reply #18 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 04:22 am »

Another reason to get Insight separates is your phonostage will be built in to the preamp. As long as the phonostage is good (Insight is) and power supplies are up to the task, I'd rather have a full function preamp than a separate phono stage. I really like the Insight preamp with its phono and for that rationale alone I'd pass on the integrated amp if vinyl was important to me.

Bryan

Brett Buck · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jan 2009, 04:30 am »

Quote from: timjthomas on 25 Jan 2009, 09:13 am

Thanks for the Jolida comparisons Brett! I spoke with Frank briefly and he was very confident that his amps don't have that "antiseptic" SS sound - something I'm trying to avoid.]

   You are welcome!

   I have never quite understood what the "antiseptic" solid-state sound would be, exactly. Most of the time I have heard it applied to amps with poor definition and lacking any sort of dynamics, like Yamahas, Pioneer, Thresholds (from the good old days, I haven't heard any in 20+ years) , etc. that all sound like really loud car radios. Certainly no quality amplifier sounds like much of *anything*. If it has any sort of distinctive sound at all, it's probably wrong.

   Brett