I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al

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marked96

  • Jr. Member
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I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« on: 15 Jan 2009, 09:16 pm »
Hello,
Empirical Audio's devices are very interesting, but I am missing some more detailed specs, measures, charts, etc.

Considering the Pace-Car's sole purpose is to reduce jitter, it seems quite logical to ask what this ($ >1K) device does to the jitter after all.

It would also be nice if we could get a jitter analysis for the devices the Pace-Car is supposed to work with (SB, Airport Express, AppleTV, ...).

Is the jitter (after the Pace-Car) somehow dependent on the input jitter - or are these not coupled at all (so after the Pace-Car all is always the same, independent of what is the source).



marked96

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #1 on: 18 Jan 2009, 05:59 pm »
Hello Steve,

I would really appreciate if you could give any specs about how much jitter Emp.Audio devices have (Pace-Car, Off-Ramp or Freeway 2). I do not understand how it can be that these devices where built and are sold as having ultra low-jitter but there is not a single word about how much jitter they have.

I read the Freeway 2 has a "low-jitter SMD monolithic clock instead of a Superclock (as used in the Off-Ramp)". But what's the effect of that? More jitter? How much more?

For the Pace-Car I see there are four available clocks. But what's the difference between them? Is the Superclock 4 the best? Is it the same as the Superclock used in the Off-Ramp or another one?

I like what I read about the Pace-Car, but having to send you the device it's going to work with is not an option (can be so many things, change over time...). Is there no way to design the Pace-Car so it avoids this "tuning" - so it works with any source?

Best regards
Mark

audioengr

Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #2 on: 18 Jan 2009, 09:13 pm »
Hello Steve,

I would really appreciate if you could give any specs about how much jitter Emp.Audio devices have (Pace-Car, Off-Ramp or Freeway 2). I do not understand how it can be that these devices where built and are sold as having ultra low-jitter but there is not a single word about how much jitter they have.

I read the Freeway 2 has a "low-jitter SMD monolithic clock instead of a Superclock (as used in the Off-Ramp)". But what's the effect of that? More jitter? How much more?

I dont currently have equipment that will characterize jitter this low.  It's beyond the capability of my test equipment.  Expensive equipment is required, and at this point I need to put that money into launching my products, which includes outsourcing the board assembly.  This way I can reduce my backlog and lead-time.  My customers would rather I do this than some measurements.

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For the Pace-Car I see there are four available clocks. But what's the difference between them? Is the Superclock 4 the best? Is it the same as the Superclock used in the Off-Ramp or another one?

The Standard clock has low-jitter (<2psec RMS jitter), but the Superclock4 (< 2psec RMS jitter also) is deifinitely more musical. The Ultraclock is more detailed than either of the others and lower jitter (not specified), but maybe not as musical as the Superclock4.  The Spectra as well as the amplitude plays a big part in the audibility of these clocks as indicated by the specs, which are a bit meaningless after you get to this level.  You have to listen to music with the clock to hear the difference.  It's all about audibility, not measurements, and this has not been adequately characterized.  For instance, the AES test reports showed that jitter below about 20 nsec was not audible.  This is 10,000 times more jitter than these clocks.  I dont recommend that you base your buying decision on measurements.  It's how it sounds that matters.

http://www.audiocominternational.com/product_detail.asp?id=8
http://www.audiocominternational.com/product_detail.asp?id=27

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I like what I read about the Pace-Car, but having to send you the device it's going to work with is not an option (can be so many things, change over time...). Is there no way to design the Pace-Car so it avoids this "tuning" - so it works with any source?

I have a mode planned for the Pace-Car 3 which will work with all devices (but will not be bit-perfect), but in the meantime it can work with all of these without tuning:

Sonos, Squeezebox3, Duet, Olive, Transporter, Lynx AES16 and other PCI cards with word-clock input, transports with word-clock input, such as the Marantz just reviewed in Stereophile.

There is no sonic degradation with choosing any of these, either wired or WiFi.  They are all identical.

BTW, a reviewer with the right equipment did make some measuements on my older Off-Ramp Turbo 2, which has more jitter than the Pace-Car.  His findings were that the distortion due to jitter in the analog waveform was in the noise level of the Audio Precision measurement gear. If he cannot measure the jitter of my old Off-Ramp turbo 2, how in the world can he measure the Pace-Car 2 :scratch:

Steve N.

marked96

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #3 on: 18 Jan 2009, 10:01 pm »
Hello Steve,

thanks' for the explanations. The jitter of the clocks is really low - wow. But how about the jitter on the outputs (say SPDIFF of an Off-Ramp) - do you have any measure or idea how much it is?

I have a Mac and AppleTV as sources. The AppleTV is already connected to an external DAC, but I noted that the same DAC sounds better when connected to a good CD transport: so a jitter problem on the AppleTV probably.

As I wrote earlier, I do not like the idea of having to tweak the Pace-Car for a certain device, so I'm more inclined to try the Freeway 2 or Off Ramp with SPDIFF output. What is the availability/shipment time for these units?

By the way, as we know the AppleTV does not support external devices connected on the USB port... but I'm experimenting ways to hack the AppleTV to see if I can get that to work. Do you see any problem using a Freeway 2 or Off Ramp with an AppleTV due to it's slow CPU?


Regards
Mark

audioengr

Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #4 on: 19 Jan 2009, 02:16 am »
Hello Steve,

thanks' for the explanations. The jitter of the clocks is really low - wow. But how about the jitter on the outputs (say SPDIFF of an Off-Ramp) - do you have any measure or idea how much it is?

It is probably 10X the clock itself, 20psec.  I still cannot measure it.  I know that the Pace-Car is lower though.  I can hear it and so can my customers.  They both use the same clock.

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I have a Mac and AppleTV as sources. The AppleTV is already connected to an external DAC, but I noted that the same DAC sounds better when connected to a good CD transport: so a jitter problem on the AppleTV probably.

Apple TV is a bit better than AirPort Express, but not hugely.  Still not comparable to a good transport.

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As I wrote earlier, I do not like the idea of having to tweak the Pace-Car for a certain device, so I'm more inclined to try the Freeway 2 or Off Ramp with SPDIFF output. What is the availability/shipment time for these units?

I am building Overdrive DAC's right now, so about 3-4 weeks probably for Off-Ramp 3.

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By the way, as we know the AppleTV does not support external devices connected on the USB port... but I'm experimenting ways to hack the AppleTV to see if I can get that to work. Do you see any problem using a Freeway 2 or Off Ramp with an AppleTV due to it's slow CPU?

It has more to do with the latency.  To playback 44.1, you only need maybe a 300MHz CPU.  It's upsampling and compression CODEC's that need megaflops.  Best of luck.

Steve N.

marked96

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #5 on: 21 Jan 2009, 06:16 am »
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It has more to do with the latency.  To playback 44.1, you only need maybe a 300MHz CPU.  It's upsampling and compression CODEC's that need megaflops.

How does the Off-Ramp work - does it have a buffer that gets filled by the host and emptied with it's more accurate clock?

If it is like that, how large is this buffer - so how much latency variation can the Off-Ramp "tolerate" before dropping samples?

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...Best of luck.

Do you think it is pointless trying to get the Off-Ramp to work on the Apple TV, due to it's latency?

I read on another thread that under Vista the Off-Ramp cannot directly output 16/44.1. What are the supported output formats on OSX Leopard/Tiger?

Am I forced to do the up-sampling under OSX too? If so, this is done by CoreAudio right - so the host does the conversion, not the device?

Can you tell me which driver is used by the Off-Ramp?
Best thing would be the bundle identifier of the driver, shown in IORegistryExplorer.(Reason is the AppleTV only ships with a minimal set of KEXTs and I'd like to know how many KEXTs are missing to get the Off-Ramp to work).

Mark


audioengr

Re: I'm missing specs for Pace-Car et al
« Reply #6 on: 21 Jan 2009, 11:22 pm »
How does the Off-Ramp work - does it have a buffer that gets filled by the host and emptied with it's more accurate clock?

No, it uses a digital PLL to track the incoming stream.

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If it is like that, how large is this buffer - so how much latency variation can the Off-Ramp "tolerate" before dropping samples?

The buffer in there is small.  It's not the latency variation that causes drop-outs.  It's usually a USB contention in the computer. I recommend limiting the other USB devices on the computer.  Best to have only the Off-Ramp on USB bus.  Usually no problems with dropouts.

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Do you think it is pointless trying to get the Off-Ramp to work on the Apple TV, due to it's latency?

It's a waste of time IMO.  If you want great performance from the ATV, just add a Pace-Car to it.  This is even better than Off-Ramp 3.

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I read on another thread that under Vista the Off-Ramp cannot directly output 16/44.1. What are the supported output formats on OSX Leopard/Tiger?

Like the Sonos, it converts 16/44.1 into 24/44.1, which  allows bit-perfect playback on Vista, improves sound quality and allows for some volume control without impacting the data.  No data is changed.

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Am I forced to do the up-sampling under OSX too? If so, this is done by CoreAudio right - so the host does the conversion, not the device?

No, you can play 44.1 on the Off-Ramp 3

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Can you tell me which driver is used by the Off-Ramp?

Native S/W driver in both PC and Mac.

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Best thing would be the bundle identifier of the driver, shown in IORegistryExplorer.(Reason is the AppleTV only ships with a minimal set of KEXTs and I'd like to know how many KEXTs are missing to get the Off-Ramp to work).

I'm not a hacker, you lost me.....

Steve N.