False marketing/consumer rights

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disgruntled

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False marketing/consumer rights
« on: 10 Jan 2009, 10:27 am »
Hi folks! I feel like I've been hosed by an audio equipment manufacturer, so I'm just stopping by to see if there are any consumer rights experts here who can explain to me what rights I have. Here's my story:

I'm a Norwegian dude who bought a set of American made power amps through a Swedish importer in the fall of 2005. I believe the amps cost me around $2100 at the time.

I had a problem with the amps. They were noisy. No matter what I did I couldn't get rid of this digital-sounding ... I guess I'll call it whizzing. I tested all kinds of different electrical curcuits (houses, basically) input sources, speakers and preamps, I even provided the importer with recordings of the noise with music playing through it on low volume, to clearly illustrate its character. Still, the importer claimed that when the amps left his shop, they were perfectly silent. He offered to take them back for another look, but I didn't want to deal with shipping the amps back and forth, fill out the import/export papers, etc., so I let it go for a while. :duh: The noise wasn't that audible in my current setup anyway, as my speakers were quite far from the listening position.

A while ago though, I moved to a smaller apartment. The new speaker placement once again made the noise hard to live with, so I contacted the manufacturer directly. Paraphrased, they basically admitted that "the amps weren't quite as silent as we thought back then", said they couldn't really fix my amps, and offered me a discounted upgrade to a newer model which was allegedly 20 dB quieter. I didn't really want to pay them more money, though.

I know it's been over three years since I've bought the amps and I shouldn't have waited this long to get the issue corrected, but isn't this false marketing somehow? Do I have any rights here? All opinions appreciated :)

PhilNYC

Re: False marketing/consumer rights
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2009, 01:49 pm »
Did they ever market their amps as having low noise?  eg. did they ever publish something that noted a signal-to-noise ratio?  And if so, did that same published material have any kind of disclaimer, like "specifications may change without notice"?

wilsynet

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Re: False marketing/consumer rights
« Reply #2 on: 11 Jan 2009, 12:57 am »
I'm going to assume that the gear is not out of spec and doesn't need repair and there's nothing the manufacturer can do to correct this issue short of selling you a different amplifier.

I don't know what consumer laws are like in Norway or Sweden.  But I'm going to guess that at some level they're not that different from the United States or Canada.  I'll also say that I'm not an expert in consumer rights.

If a brewery advertises that a beverage "tastes great, and is less filling", what really can you do if it doesn't taste great and isn't less filling?  Presumably it tastes great and is less filling to someone, all they really needed to do was to get one person to attest that this is true and away they go with an advertising campaign.

Most of these claims are often subjective claims.  Is the amplifier dead silent?  It was to someone.  Does this solid state amplifier sound like a pair of SET monoblocks?  Yes, it does to someone.  Maybe that someone isn't you, but I'm sure there's someone in the world who would say "Yes, it sounds the same as SET to me."  Just go to Audioholics and you'll see plenty of posts that claim there is no difference between amplifiers, that jitter is inaudible in modern electronics, and that HT sounds just as good as dedicated 2-channel.

If they advertised a certain S/N ratio, and you're not getting that S/N ratio, maybe you're onto something.  But how are they measuring that S/N ratio and under what conditions did they achieve that?  My guess is that they can back up the S/N numbers with measurements, just like lots of audio manufacturers that sell to big box stores advertise gigantic power numbers for their amplifiers.

But let's assume that their absolute measurements were wrong for a moment and that you've got something here.

In 2001, my friend received a letter from Mazda about his late model Miata.  Mazda had advertised the Miata as having a certain horsepower.  After the cars were already sold, they found that they had over-estimated the HP, and it was 5 less HP than advertised.  If I remember correctly, what they did was offer to buy back the car at fair market value (not the new price) or send a cheque to my friend for $1K.  But this offer wasn't good forever; you had to make a decision.

Was the amplifier substantially different than was claimed?  For the areas which you find that it is substantially different, my guess is that those things are subjective (depends on the person), contextual (depends on associated gear and environment) and not absolute.

Even if we could all agree that things aren't as they were originally claimed, hey, it's been 3 years.  My, that's a long time.  A reasonable person would conclude that after 3 years of inaction and ambivalence that you had accepted the amplifier as good and appropriate and that you were satisfied with its performance.

If the manufacturer is offering you trade-in value for your amplifier, then I think they've gone above and beyond the call of duty.  If the manufacturer is simply offering a small, marginal discount then sure, they could be doing more, but they don't really have to do anything.

Perhaps they're really trying hard to do the right thing, but it would be unreasonable to expect a 100% refund on gear that was sold to you 3 years ago.  If the company had a return policy at the time (a number of audio manufacturers offer 30 days), you should have returned the gear way back then.

Kevin Haskins

Re: False marketing/consumer rights
« Reply #3 on: 11 Jan 2009, 01:15 am »
Noise in a system is difficult to track down to a given piece of equipment too.    Saying something on the phone is a lot different than advertising something.   It is pretty hard to prove anything when it was just a verbal admission in a phone call.   It comes down to a he said, she said sort of thing.

I think you are hosed.   Even if they where in the US and you went to the BBB they would ask you why it wasn't handled three years ago. 

JoshK

Re: False marketing/consumer rights
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jan 2009, 07:01 am »
I think the three year lapse basically seals the fate on this case.  Sorry to say.

Probably the best course of action would be to find a buddy who knows electronics try to take a look at the amp and see if they can't work some magic.  If they know what they are doing, they should be able to find the noise culprit and address it.  That may make the amp acceptable to use. 

Niteshade

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Re: False marketing/consumer rights
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jan 2009, 10:28 am »
What kind of amp is it? Are they tube or solid state? What's the sensitivity of your speakers?