[donreitz]

Having recently purchased a pair of WLM La Scalas, I have to wonder how such big sound comes out of those relatively little boxes. I’m not particularly sophisticated when it comes to audio, but even I can recognize that the La Scalas make high quality music. This has come as a real relief to me as I purchased the units without having heard them. There seems to be more of this happening and we’re going to have to depend on folks like Vinnie to steer us in the right direction if we’re not in a position to evaluate a component before purchasing it. Vinnie’s handholding through my decision process was helpful and deeply appreciated.

The reports are correct in that the La Scalas make good bass. For most music there is no need for anything more. However, being fond of music with substantial percussion (I’m big on Latin music for one thing), there are times when I’d like the bass to dig a little deeper. The La Scalas are surprisingly adept at generating good, clean bass, but perhaps it could be just a little more supple and less dry. For example, Richard Davis’s bass playing on Blue Monk comes through loud and amazingly clear on the La Scalas, but some of the bass’s woodiness is missing. My personal bogey for good bass is the ported 15-incher found in JBL L200s from the 1970s. In my admittedly limited experience, I haven’t run into deeper, wetter, and more sinuous bass than that put out by those JBLs.

Now, it’s unreasonable to expect the La Scala to duplicate the bass of a 15 incher, so I’m looking for advice on supplementing them with a subwoofer. I know WLM makes a couple models, but I assume (1) Vinnie doesn’t carry them, and (2) they’re sure to be out of my price range. The other two brands I’ve looked which have gotten generally good reviews are Hsu and Zu Audio. The Hsu models are very reasonable and the Zu versions are not terribly expensive either. Being unfamiliar with subwoofers, the attraction of Hsu is that I could afford to risk not being entirely satisfied with their performance (I’m a percussion fan remember). The attraction of the Zu subwoofers is that they are sealed and designed to complement Zu Druids which are similar to the La Scalas (wide bander supplemented with a tweeter, minimal crossover, ported). I’m assuming that a subwoofer designed to complement the Zu Druid would be a good choice for the La Scalas as well.

Any advice is appreciated.
Don

My audio system: AES AE3 Mk II preamp (tubes), Crown D150 amp (transistors), Rega Apollo CD player, WLM La Scala speakers.

[Profbratsch]

Congratulations on the acquisition of your La Scalas!

I did a search on Audiogon and, factoring in your preference for low price I came across the following ads:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1236480412&/Selah-Audio-custom-subwoofer

Selah Audio has gotten some very positive feedback from those who have heard their speakers at the RMAF.  At <$700 I would take the plunge.   

Since you mentioned Hsu Research here is a possibility:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1235321338&/HSU-vtf-3ho

If you were to come into about $1900 this would be a terrific addition to your system:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1233456961&/REL-Britannia-B1


Hope you find what you are looking for...

[mcgsxr]

I would recommend a sealed sub for best speed and match with your speakers.  That Salk one looks to be fantastic...

As long as the sub is biamped, which it will be, the slight loss of lowest bass (vs a ported sub) and output, can be addressed with EQ, and volume.

[bricktop]

These look very interesting, though I have yet to try them (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html).  Maybe someone with some experience with these can chime in.

[Joe_K]

Don,

ACI makes some very musical, sealed subs. I would put them on my short list. They also have a circle on this site.

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/speakers.htm#subwoofers
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=76.0

Joe

[Alwayswantmore]

Don,

ACI makes some very musical, sealed subs. I would put them on my short list. They also have a circle on this site.

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/speakers.htm#subwoofers
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=76.0

Joe

I just sold an ACI Force XL to get the Omega DeepHemp. I run mine with 6" Alnico single-drivers from Omega. I have also owned the Vandersteen 2W. While all three are good subs, I have no question the DeepHemp is faster and offers more tuneful / texture in low-end. Also the woodwork on Omega is about as good as it gets. Omega has a circle here on AC.

The build quality of the amp -- judged by the feel of the controls -- is also higher on the Omega. Lastly both the Omega and Vandersteen could take high-level (speaker) inputs from a balanced amp (the Sig 30.2 has balanced outs). The ACI could not take high level from balanced amp. Something else to consider, because both Vandersteen and Omega recommend you run their subs from your amp (speaker outs) to get the same tone (musical signal) going to both mains and sub.

BTW: Omega's is sealed with Hemp driver.

[donreitz]

Lots of good leads. Thanks much. Anyone familiar with the Zu Audio Method or Mini Method? Zu has a good reputation, but I can't find a review of these units.
Appreciate the help.
Don

[Profbratsch]

It seems that you are wary of some of the smaller companies that have been mentioned.  I think one way to ease your concerns is to call a representative of the firm and discuss your application and preferences.  I have found that customer relations and service are often more of a priority with smaller businesses that wind up being immensely successful and people in leadership positions make themselves accessible.  Take Vinnie, for example. 

Bricktop's lead is a really good one, particularly if you like the idea of buying new and obtaining a bona fide warranty.  Rhytmik Audio's entire product line seems to have a lot of value built in!

[IronLion]

I have a Zu Mini Method, not using it currently at the moment as I just got a new amp.  It is a good sub as far as I can tell, its the only dedicated sub I've owned other than a POS home theatre sub so I can't compare it to much.  If you look around here on AC, Vinnie used to own a Mini Method as well (maybe still does? not sure) and has some very favorable impressions of it, but that was at least a year ago, probably almost two years ago.  Also, people on Audiogon have posted impressions of the Mini Method on the discussion threads there.   

[hmen]

I have a Hsu that I use for HT only. I don't think it's fast enough to use for music.  For $699 that Selah looks like a great deal. 

[kingpin]

This may be a little off-topic, but I've been unsure about whether the WLM Diva Monitor will go low enough for me or whether I'll need a sub as well.  The Diva Monitor with the Control unit is said to go down to 32 Hz, which I'm not sure will give me enough bass.  I also listen to a lot of latin, soul and reggae, so good bass is a necessity.

Looking at some of the suggestions made in this thread, it looks like some of these subs go below 20Hz. 

How low do you need to go to get good (but not overwhelming and unnecessary) bass?  Is there a big difference between 30Hz and 20Hz?

Thanks.

[IronLion]

This may be a little off-topic, but I've been unsure about whether the WLM Diva Monitor will go low enough for me or whether I'll need a sub as well.  The Diva Monitor with the Control unit is said to go down to 32 Hz, which I'm not sure will give me enough bass.  I also listen to a lot of latin, soul and reggae, so good bass is a necessity.

Looking at some of the suggestions made in this thread, it looks like some of these subs go below 20Hz. 

How low do you need to go to get good (but not overwhelming and unnecessary) bass?  Is there a big difference between 30Hz and 20Hz?

Thanks.

A big factor I think will be the size of the room you plan to listen in.  If your room is small, I think the Diva with the Control going down to 32hz should be plenty.  Keep in mind I think those measurements are probably taken in an anechoic chamber, so in-room response is probably better than you think. 

Myself, I have a pair of TP Minis which go down to 40hz or probably lower but in any case, in my small (12 x 15) room they produce a bit of low bass, but their mid and especially upper bass is quite taught and pressurizes the room nicely.  I have a Zu Mini Method which runs to 20hz supposedly but I haven't felt the desire to set it up with my SP Techs in my room yet, though that is in part because I just got a new amp.  I listen to some bass heavy music and definitely need it to be present as well.

[kingpin]

This may be a little off-topic, but I've been unsure about whether the WLM Diva Monitor will go low enough for me or whether I'll need a sub as well.  The Diva Monitor with the Control unit is said to go down to 32 Hz, which I'm not sure will give me enough bass.  I also listen to a lot of latin, soul and reggae, so good bass is a necessity.

Looking at some of the suggestions made in this thread, it looks like some of these subs go below 20Hz. 

How low do you need to go to get good (but not overwhelming and unnecessary) bass?  Is there a big difference between 30Hz and 20Hz?

Thanks.

A big factor I think will be the size of the room you plan to listen in.  If your room is small, I think the Diva with the Control going down to 32hz should be plenty.  Keep in mind I think those measurements are probably taken in an anechoic chamber, so in-room response is probably better than you think. 

Myself, I have a pair of TP Minis which go down to 40hz or probably lower but in any case, in my small (12 x 15) room they produce a bit of low bass, but their mid and especially upper bass is quite taught and pressurizes the room nicely.  I have a Zu Mini Method which runs to 20hz supposedly but I haven't felt the desire to set it up with my SP Techs in my room yet, though that is in part because I just got a new amp.  I listen to some bass heavy music and definitely need it to be present as well.

Thanks. The room is 19 x 12, so not too much bigger than yours.  I do have an Era Sub 10 which is rated down to 28hz which I might use in case I need more bass, but I'd like to avoid having to integrate a sub into my system if I can avoid it.

[Joe_K]

Don,
ACI makes some very musical, sealed subs. I would put them on my short list. They also have a circle on this site.

http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/speakers.htm#subwoofers
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=76.0

Alwayswantmore:
"The ACI could not take high level from balanced amp. Something else to consider, because both Vandersteen and Omega recommend you run their subs from your amp (speaker outs) to get the same tone (musical signal) going to both mains and sub."


What is a balanced amp? (I doubt if Don is running the optional PA adapter.) As far as I know ACI subs can take speaker outs from your amp to their input. An adapter is included with them for this.

[Alwayswantmore]

What is a balanced amp? (I doubt if Don is running the optional PA adapter.) As far as I know ACI subs can take speaker outs from your amp to their input. An adapter is included with them for this.

Many of the new upper-end SS amps are balanced, and some tube amps are too. For example Ayre and BAT amps are all balanced. This post for speakers is in the RWA Circle. All current RWA amps also run balanced outs.

In terms of what is balanced, it means that each channel needs its own ground (i.e. no shared ground), because both the + and - leads carry active signals for both channels.

A Crown D-150 is probably not balanced, because the design has been around for many years (as far as I know). But if you ever want to go to a Sig 30.2, this becomes an issue.

[donreitz]

A very interesting thread and the feedback has been tremendous. The sealed Omega and ACI subs are interesting, although I’m wondering whether the 8 inch woofer in the Omega can really serve the purpose of filling in the bottom end of the La Scalas (remember I’m a subwoofer newbie). I’d assume that you’d look for a woofer larger than the ones in the speakers you’re wanting to supplement if you’re hoping to dig deeper in the bass. On the other hand, Omega speakers appear to have a loyal and enthusiastic following.

I noticed that certain sub models are recommended for small, medium, or large rooms without defining what these sizes represent. My listening room is 14w x 16l x 10h. I’d guess this is a “medium” room, right? Does this suggest a generally appropriate size of subwoofer given the particular speakers I have or is it more complicated than that?  My assumption is that a medium sized room probably can accommodate a 10 or 12 inch subwoofer for purposes of supplementing (not replacing) the La Scala mid/woofers. An 8 incher might not move enough additional air to be worthwhile and a 15 incher would be overkill. I’m parading my ignorance here so I’ll contact some of the companies suggested and learn more.

Thanks for all the help.
Don

[Alwayswantmore]

A very interesting thread and the feedback has been tremendous. The sealed Omega and ACI subs are interesting, although I’m wondering whether the 8 inch woofer in the Omega can really serve the purpose of filling in the bottom end of the La Scalas (remember I’m a subwoofer newbie). I’d assume that you’d look for a woofer larger than the ones in the speakers you’re wanting to supplement if you’re hoping to dig deeper in the bass. On the other hand, Omega speakers appear to have a loyal and enthusiastic following.

I noticed that certain sub models are recommended for small, medium, or large rooms without defining what these sizes represent. My listening room is 14w x 16l x 10h. I’d guess this is a “medium” room, right? Does this suggest a generally appropriate size of subwoofer given the particular speakers I have or is it more complicated than that?  My assumption is that a medium sized room probably can accommodate a 10 or 12 inch subwoofer for purposes of supplementing (not replacing) the La Scala mid/woofers. An 8 incher might not move enough additional air to be worthwhile and a 15 incher would be overkill. I’m parading my ignorance here so I’ll contact some of the companies suggested and learn more.

Thanks for all the help.
Don

While you could generalize about size of driver vs frequency, there are variables attributable to a given vendor's overall design, and the parts / materials they use, that could run in the face of any generalizations.

Assuming you're into music -- and hi-fidelity -- finding a sub that provides seamless integration to your mains IMO should be a top priority. Ideally you won't know the sub is in your room. Here's a case where a 15" may go deeper, but may not be fast enough to integrate as well with your mains.

My Vandersteen 2W had three 8" drivers, the ACI Force XL had a single 10" if memory serves me correct, while my current Omega DeepHemp has a single 8" Hemp driver. All three have approximately 200+ watt internal amps.

From a listening standpoint, I do not perceive a difference in how low the three units go. I would characterize the ACI as having a bigger sound when compared to the other two, but not as tuneful. The bigger sound could be an advantage if the sub was used for home theater. Where the Vandersteen and Omega have a more controlled sound, and IMO the Omega being the fastest of the three.

I would also say that if you were really into pipe organ, none of these units may be ideal.

As far as room size, I recommend you check with the vendor of any product you are considering. Assuming they have a 30 day money back guarantee (both ACI and Omega have this, don't know Vandersteen's current policies), they will be straight in terms of setting expectations. They have no reason to oversell their products, where they might get the unit shipped back and potentially negative comments on forums like AC. They can also explain what's behind their design philosophy, and what type of sound / applications they are targetting.

[One thing I love about vendors like RWA, ACI and Omega, is you can pick up the phone and talk directly to the guy who designed the product. Get his recommendation for associated equipment, cable types, room positioning, etc. I have had personal conversations with all these companies -- and I believe all three appreciate being able to share their knowledge and enthusiasm with potential customers.]

Also since your considering subs, you may want to post this same question in the ACI / Vandersteen / Omega web sites / Circles to get feedback from current users. You may also want to call Vinnie when he gets back from CES. He will give you honest input.

Again, good luck with your decision.

[donreitz]

I've taken Alwayswantmore's advice and asked these questions at the Omega and ACI circles.
I appreciate everyone's help.
Don

[wilsynet]

In one of your messages you were looking for a review of the Zu Method/Mini-Method.

I have a Zu Mini-Method to go along with my Zu Druids.  It is very good.  And a friend recently borrowed it to audition with his Von Schweikert VR-2s and was very pleased with it.

6moons reviewed the Method awhile back.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu3/method.html

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Don,

I apologize for the delayed response - I've been away at the CES show in Vegas (excuses, excuses    ).

I am very familiar with the Omega Deephemp.  For the money (I believe it is under $1500), I do not believe you can find a better sub for music.  I'm sure it will work very well with your La Scalas.  I know it is only 8", but it is very tight, powerful, and clean.  I am confident that it will provide you with a healthy dose of musical bass, and I do believe it will give you enough output given the room dimensions that you provided.  There are 12" subs out there that can'y keep up and just go "boom, boom, boom" but cannot articulate the bass notes.  The Deephemp is great for music and I remember testing the in-room response to extend below 30Hz.
 
As with any sub, it will take some effort to find the best location, fine-tune the sound with the amplitude, crossover, and phase adjustments, etc., but you will be rewarded with very good quality bass.
 
Louis of Omega also does fine cabinet work and is great to deal with (maybe he can find you a cherry vaneer to match with your La Scalas?).  It is easier to call him on the phone as he prefers this and is more responsive to phone calls than emails (but he will get back to you if you prefer to email him).  Louis also offers a 30-day return policy and a 10-year warranty, so you can buy with confidence.

No matter what sub you end up trying, please let us know how it works out for you. 

Best regards,

Vinnie