[strat95]

It appears that another variation (not really a variation) of the CD format is being offered to us, perhaps to try and sell us all the CDs we have already bought all over again.  It is called Blu-Spec CD and has some sort of commonality with the Blu-Ray disc manufacturing process.

The idea is that better materials are being used (another recent format popular in Japan comes to mind called SHM-CD where the SHM stands for Super High Materials I think??) to manufacture these disks and thus the pits forming the spiral of data have smoother edges so to speak.  The claim is that nothing is being remastered for these releases, existing mastered copies are being used to reproduce these Blu-Spec CDs.

There is a discussion of this on another board and people are claiming they hear a difference, which leads me to question is the mastering used on the Blu-Spec version identical to a previously mastered version?

After all, pits are pits are they not?  Would it not be safe to assume that any capable CD player should be able to read this data identically regardless of better materials, or is there some sort of mechanism in the way of CD reading (standalone players) that could generate differences?

And if pits are pits, you should be able to use a CD-Rom to read the PCM data from both versions and do a comparison to see if the data is in fact the same.  Now regardless of better materials claimed to be used on Blu-Spec CD, data is still data and all binary zeros and ones should read as such.

Am I missing something here?  Anyone else have any opinions?

Ted
 

[turkey]

The info at Wikipedia says it all:

"Blu-spec CD is a specification for an improved version of a conventional Audio CD, introduced by Sony Music Entertainment. Instead of a traditional infra-red laser, a blue laser is used for recording the pits on the CD master that is needed for disc replication. The blue laser creates more precise pits, causing less distortion in the optical read-out process and supposedly resulting in higher-quality audio. [1]. However, and despite marketing claims, there is no published proof or evidence that this technology actually leads to any improvement in the final audio reproduced, since CIRC, the built-in redundancy and error correction system that is part of the CD standard, already takes care of occasional misread bits."

[John151]

Interesting.  I thought Blue-Ray was offering "more pits" vs. "better pits".

Assuming pits are bits, then I would agree that pits are pits - either you have a pit, or you do not (i.e. 1 or 0).  Also, it was my understanding that the CD format limited the dynamic range to reduce the number of bits needed.  Thus, adding more bits/pits should improve the audio (if not for humans, at least for dogs as humans supposedly can't hear the range that is truncated).

This kind of reminds me of issues where people claim to hear a difference between digital cables.  I would expect that either a cable works, and the signal gets thru 100%, or it does not, in which case there would be very noticeable issues as some of the content is missing.  This would be equivalent to seeing sparkles on a digital TV when using DVI/HDMI over long runs. 

I am not making a point here, just thinking out loud as I remain confused by both analog and digital audio quality.  Life was so much simpler back in the day when I evaluated audio gear by looking at the number of blinking lights on the front panel, and the THD stats.   

[John151]

Doh, hit quote instead of modify.

[mfsoa]

AFAIK, the pits don't represent "on" and "off", but each pit is actually a different length (I forget how many discrete lengths there are, 12 or something like that) and it is the duration of the pit in time that holds the information.

Therefore it is a very analog-like process, critically dependant on time accuracy.

When the process is viewed in this analog-like fashion, it becomes much easier to see why transports/green pens/different CD-Rs etc. can make a difference to the final sound quality, to me at least.

-Mike

[John151]

I thought Blue-Ray has multiple layers of pits, which is how they get so much more storage.  I would be surprised if the depth of the pit define's it's value. 

[Brown]

Sony Bolonga. Hurry up go sell all your vinyl the CD is coming. They are the marketing kings for sure. I'll give them the benifit of doubt until I hear one, dejaveau all over again.

[mfsoa]

Sorry I was confused - What I was referring to was the way Redbook works, in that there is not a "pit/no pit" choice, but an "OK, here's the start of a pit, now let me wait and see how much time it takes for the pit to end, OH there it is, how long did that take? Got it, now let me figure out how long the pit was, OK, now I know which of the pre-defined pit lengths that was" kind of thing.

I'm glad they have chips to do that - I'd get tired after a few minutes  

If someone can breifly describe how the pits are arranged (different lengths, how many possible lengths etc.) for BluRay I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

-Mike

[ted_b]

Blu-spec cd, the subject of this thread, is NOT Blu-Ray.  Not sure how the discussion quickly turned to Blu-Ray, a DVD format, but they're not related ( other than a blue laser used to cut).

[John151]

Blu-spec cd, the subject of this thread, is NOT Blu-Ray.  Not sure how the discussion quickly turned to Blu-Ray, a DVD format, but they're not related ( other than a blue laser).

You are correct.  I ASSumed that it was a Blue-Ray DVD disc with a music format.  In looking up the Wikepida definition posted above, there is also this text:

A Blu-spec CD can be played on all CD players and does not require a blue laser to be read. It is not a Blu-ray Disc.

[jhm731]

Jan 06, 2009 12:00 ET

Pioneer Subsidiary Technical Audio Devices Partners with Celebrated
Music Icons to Demonstrate New High-Res Audio Format

LAS VEGAS --(Business Wire)-- Jan 06, 2009 To the excitement of
audiophiles and music enthusiasts worldwide, Pioneer Electronics
(USA) Inc. is hosting world famous recording legends Bill Schnee and
Doug Sax at its Technical Audio Devices (TAD) suite in the Venetian
Sands during the International Consumer Electronics Show (CES),
January 8 – 11, 2009. Longtime collaborators, Schnee and Sax are
showcasing their new high resolution recordings to be issued on a
music-only format utilizing Blu-ray Disc technology, giving consumers
an unprecedented opportunity to experience digital music that rivals
2-channel analog sound. With this unique partnership, Pioneer
demonstrates its commitment to consistently offer consumers high
performance entertainment that replicates the true intentions of
creative professionals.

Bill Schnee and Doug Sax will be demonstrating their new home audio
solution at the TAD suite in Venetian Tower Ven 34-208 at the
following times:

Thursday, January 8, 3 p.m.
Friday, January 9, 11 a.m. and 3 p.m.
Saturday, January 10, 11 a.m. and 3 p.m.
Sunday, January 11, 11 a.m.
Working closely with Pioneer's Chief Speaker Designer Andrew Jones,
the duo will play a series of hand-selected tracks for attendees,
including music recorded and mixed live to 2-channel high resolution
digital. Replay will be through the TAD Compact Reference monitor
speakers and a complimentary 24-bit/192Hz audio DAC for superior
sound performance that transcends the capabilities of current audio
equipment.

"While the industry has made a steady shift toward compressed audio,
we believe that home audiences deserve a richer listening experience
and there is a tremendous opportunity with emerging high definition
technology to develop a medium that can successfully maintain the
integrity of an original recording," said Bill Schnee, award winning
music engineer. "We look forward to fusing our visions with Pioneer
to develop this format for Blu-ray, and giving a taste of what is to
come at CES."

The Legend of Sax and Schnee

With countless accolades including GRAMMY®, Emmy® and IATSE as well
as equally impressive resumes, Bill Schnee and Doug Sax are cited for
their extensive efforts in the high fidelity music arena. The duo are
widely regarded for their revolutionary Direct-to-Disc LP recordings
done for Sax's Sheffield Lab Records that debuted more than 35 years
ago. These hi-fi recordings are credited as some of the world's best
sounding albums as well as the ideal source content for demonstrating
an array of audio equipment.

Introducing Modern High Fidelity

For discerning audio enthusiasts who wish to return to these roots,
Schnee and Sax's new format aims to restore the dynamic sound quality
that is reminiscent of their direct-to-disc recordings but can now be
mastered in high resolution digital for replay from Blu-ray Disc. In
the near future, consumers will have the opportunity to purchase and
enjoy live recordings with an astonishing quality not previously
available.

Technical Audio Devices is a leading manufacturer of quality
loudspeakers for professional and general consumer markets. Since
1975, TAD Pro Audio loudspeakers have been used in recording studios
and professional sound production environments worldwide. With the
establishment of TAD Home Audio the company's flagship Reference One
speaker, incorporating TAD proprietary beryllium diaphragms, delivers
professional studio quality audio to consumers.

Pioneer Corporation is a leading global manufacturer of consumer and
business-use electronics products such as audio, video and car
electronics. Its shares are traded on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

PIONEER is a registered trademark of Pioneer Corporation.

TAD is a trademark of Pioneer Corporation.

Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc.
Christina Ramirez, 310-952-2388
christina.ramirez@...
Andrew Jones, 310-952-2890
andrew.jones@...

[ted_b]

The Sax/Pioneer TAD project (I'm attending their showcase event on Saturday at CES) is not Blu-spec either!!    This project is a noble and hopefully successful attempt to take advantage of the Blu-ray DVD 24/192 capability.  C'mon folks, the OP (original poster) is asking if we've tasted an orange fruit, and everyone is telling him about other things that use the word orange.  Sorry OP.

I've not heard a Blu-spec cd yet, but there are few if any reviews out there.  The SHM you mention has been reviewed by Bob Levi, among others, and he likes the upgraded materials, etc and says it has a sonic net gain, but I've heard nothing about Blu-spec yet, other than the numerous press releases by Sony.  I'll try to check it out at CES this weekend, and if I see or hear anything will report back.  There are supposedly 60 titles released, mostly in Japan (and of course, most assume Miles's Kind Of Blue, the most re-released disc in history, will be at the forefront, if for no other reason than it's title    ).