SongTower setup for 2 channel listening

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Wayner

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #20 on: 5 Jan 2009, 11:52 pm »
I think every speaker has that "magic" distance between them and toe-in angle, regardless of room size. My Paradigm 40v.3 studio monitors want to be about 6 feet apart. It doesn't matter if the room was 12 feet wide or 100. That is their developing field. Parameter walls affect bass and mid bass response but are not as crucial in soundfield as distance between. That will require you to take drastic measures and free yourself of your own setway and feel free to move the speakers in or out as close as you dare (and beyond) to find their happy distance. Too far apart makes the hole. Too close together makes you wonder where the stereo went. Find the spot. Distance between is the first important factor, then after finding the "GEE" spot, fart around with toe-in angle.

Have fun.

Wayner  :D

Art_Chicago

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #21 on: 6 Jan 2009, 02:39 am »
charmerci,
"That's because you haven't cranked them up loud enough. Ya gotta do the wall of sound, baby!"

Is it the way you found your speakers' best placement? I hope not!

Wayner,

"Too far apart makes the hole. Too close together makes you wonder where the stereo went. Find the spot. Distance between is the first important factor, then after finding the "GEE" spot, fart around with toe-in angle."
I agree with this in general, but I think the ST's are quite  flexible, probably more than others! 11 feet apart give me wide enough soundstage, and some toe-in allows to 'see' a full size orchestra with all of the musicians working hard; no one is taking a break in the centre  :wink:.
Art

oneinthepipe

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Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #22 on: 6 Jan 2009, 04:24 am »
I really don't understand the toe-in stuff, because I can't figure out what contraindicates toe-ing in speakers.  Does the speakers' design indicate a manufacturer's preference for a particular placement position (angle)?  With my previous speakers, a pair of Spendor S3/5, the manufacturer recommended listening to the speakers on axis, with the speakers pointed at the listener, and I had them pointed about one foot behind my head.  I reviewed some of Jim and Dennis' previous posts, and they recommended placing the speakers without any toe-in or with very limited toe-in (from pointed straight ahead).  After Wayner posted, I moved the speakers a little further apart, which resulted in a wider soundstage.  However, with the speakers facing straight ahead, the vocals are further back in the stage.  Maybe this is because the soundstage is also deeper without the toe-in than before when I had the speakers inward more.  Regardless, I had become accustomed to the vocals being far out front.  I'm going to Home Depot tomorrow to purchase some "floor gliders" to place under the feet to allow me to move the speakers more easily. Then I will experiment some more.

Nuance

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #23 on: 6 Jan 2009, 04:55 am »
I'd like Jim and Dennis to weigh in on this, since they both own SongTower's.  How far apart do you gents have them, and how much, if any, toe-in do you use?  How far are they from the room boundaries, etc?  Knowing what the designers use as a guideline will certainly help aid us consumers. 

fishinbob

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #24 on: 6 Jan 2009, 03:02 pm »
I'm still fiddling with mine but I currently have them toed in at 6 or so degrees with a spread of 7'-8" give or take.
Here are some numbers for Songtower owners based on the offset of the floor spikes.(moving one spike off of square on the short dimension).
         

1/4"    - 1.61 degrees
1/2"    - 3.23
3/4"    - 4.85
1"       - 6.47
1 1/4"  - 8.10
1 1/2"  - 9.73
1 3/4"  -11.37
2"        -13.02
« Last Edit: 7 Jan 2009, 01:45 am by fishinbob »

Wayner

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #25 on: 6 Jan 2009, 03:30 pm »
I don't know how to explain the sound I listen for, but it's like the speakers are really connected together, not electrically but audibly. First, you should be able to here "stereo" almost anywhere you sit. If you are along the long wall and have the speakers almost straight out, you will lose that real presence of the distant speaker (unless it has great off-axis response, which the towers seem to poses). Another test is some recording with higher frequency sound that sweeps from one channel to another. The sound should not get lost in the middle. If so, you may be too far apart, or need some toe in.

There is a magic angle, again, I can't explain it, but I move the speakers around until I hear it. When that point is hit, it goes from stereo to 3D with wide and deep soundstage, overall balanced sound and I am easily able to pinpoint sounds. The natural reverberation of the recording should also come through in colors. If your speakers sound dull and lifeless, it may not be your equipment, just the position of your speakers.

Wayner

oneinthepipe

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Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #26 on: 6 Jan 2009, 04:13 pm »
Everything changes the sound.  I have the speakers about 90" apart, and I seem to have good stereo.  If I move the speakers much further apart, I can hear the individual speakers more, and if I move them even further apart, within the limits of my room, I get a hole in the middle.  If I move them a few inches closer together, it still sounds good. The toe-in seems to primarily affect the placement of instruments/voices, and in doing so, also seems to reduce the soundstage.  I want the most accurate sound possible, and I don't want to merely rely on what sounds good to me, because I don't really know how it is supposed to sound, objectively.  (I think that listening is a developed skill; otherwise, we wouldn't go through these processes, and everyone would be happy with whatever they had.)   Notwithstanding, I prefer to have the location of voices and instruments easily identified rather than a "voice from above" (or somewhere).  (Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz; they must have had terrible acoustics in there, because Dorothy et al were looking everywhere when they heard Oz's voice.) The placement of acoustic panels also affects the sound.  I found that putting an additional panel on the ceiling between the speakers before the first reflection points brought the vocals out forward, notwithstanding the three panels on the ceiling that cover the reflection point.  Also, my distance from the speakers affects the sound.  When the speakers are further apart, I prefer to sit further away, although my room isn't very long.  When the speakers are closer together, I find myself leaning forward.  To me, that suggests that a lot of toe-in doesn't sound that good to me.

But, is there something specific about the SongTower design that indicates speaker placement without toe-in?

DMurphy

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Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #27 on: 6 Jan 2009, 05:13 pm »
I don't have any strong feelings about this.  You don't want the ear to be too far off of the tweeter axis, since this is where the phase relationships have been optimized.  But at any decent listening distance, that's not going to be a real problem with the speaks pointed straight ahead.  For the record, my ST'sa are 7 feet apart, 3 feet out from the back wall, and I listen at 10 feet.  I use just a smidge of toe-in.  Nothing you would really notice if you walked into the room.  The only performance characteristic of the ST that would affect toe-in is its very broad dispersion across the frequency spectrum.  That would indicate less need for toe-in, but it's strictly a case of what makes you happy.  I don't have any sound treatments other than a heavy curtain behind that I sometimes close.  Mostly not.  The view's really quite nice. 

Nuance

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #28 on: 6 Jan 2009, 05:31 pm »
Thanks, Dennis.  Did you mean you listen at 10 feet? 

Since I have the ribbon version of the ST's, would this also apply to them, or should I experiment more with toe-in?  Thanks.

DMurphy

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Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #29 on: 6 Jan 2009, 05:41 pm »
Since I have the ribbon version of the ST's, would this also apply to them, or should I experiment more with toe-in?  Thanks.

The ribbon's horizontal dispersion isn't as wide as the dome's, so I guess that would indicate more gains from toe-in.  But I don't have two ribbon ST's, so I really can't say.  There isn't any "right" answer.  It strictly a matter of you and your room. 

Wayner

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #30 on: 6 Jan 2009, 05:51 pm »
Thanks for commenting, Dennis.

I have several different makes of speakers. One has almost zero toe-in, maybe 5-7 degrees, tops. It's happier than hell right their. Another brand is toed-in at about 20 degrees, both tweeters aiming at my head. That is where that pair is happy. My MartinLogan reQuests like about 10-15 degree's of toe-in. Most of the time (for all speakers in general), I like the equilateral triangle method where the distance between speakers is at least the distance from the speakers. This doesn't work for all, but it is a place to start.

OITP, I suggest you find a happy spot for the day and leave it there for awhile. If the next day you find it not right, move it a little and leave it for another day. After you've heard some hours of music, you may like it right where they are.

Wayner

charmerci

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #31 on: 6 Jan 2009, 08:58 pm »
I have found that when the speakers' axis crosses somewhere around my head that the soundstage is too narrow. I find that having the  speakers pointing straight ahead doesn't quite work either. I haven't measured it (as I don't have my stereo set up now  :cry:) but they need to be toed-in ever so slightly. I would tend to agree with Wayner that each speaker has their optimal distance apart no matter the size of the room.

P.S. I don't have SongTowers.  :(   I wish.

robinje

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #32 on: 7 Jan 2009, 08:55 pm »
speakers ~72" apart (C-C)
ears ~95" from speakers
ears ~45" from rear wall
ears ~40" from floor
tweeters ~37" from floor
tweeters ~37" from side walls
rear of speakers ~30" from front wall

I have the tweeters aimed so that their on-axis intersection is right behind my head.  This setup sounds great to me!

Nuance

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #33 on: 7 Jan 2009, 09:24 pm »
The ribbon's horizontal dispersion isn't as wide as the dome's, so I guess that would indicate more gains from toe-in.  But I don't have two ribbon ST's, so I really can't say.  There isn't any "right" answer.  It strictly a matter of you and your room. 
Thanks, I will experiment and find a happy balance between pinpoint imaging and a large soundstage. 

zybar

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #34 on: 7 Jan 2009, 09:27 pm »
I temporarily have my newest pair of SongTowers in my 2 channel setup so I can hear what they can really do with top notch gear (Atma-Sphere MA-1's, Modwright Transporter) and here is how they are setup:

Speakers are ~ 85" apart (center to center)
Speakers are ~ 34" from each side wall
Speakers are ~ 88" from the front wall
Speakers are ~ 177" from my ears to the tweeters
Speakers are toed in so that they cross about 1' behind my head

This produces a wide and deep soundstage with lots of detail, rock solid images and good bass.

George

Nuance

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #35 on: 8 Jan 2009, 03:16 am »
zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance?  I wouldn't have expected that.

That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there.  One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well.   :thumb:

BikeWNC

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #36 on: 8 Jan 2009, 02:21 pm »
I have the HT3s and I played around with my speaker position this morning, moving them a bit more into the room and narrowing the distance between them.  It made a big difference in the sound.  It now is almost holographic, much more even bass distribution and deeper soundstage.  I guess the speakers are now another foot from the front wall but almost 2 feet closer together.  I'll let them sit there for a day or so and maybe move them a bit one way or another. 

The room is 26x20x9.  The speakers are 8' from the front wall, 6' from the side walls and 8' apart.  My listening position is 10' from the speakers and 8' from the back wall.  All measurements +/- an inch or so.  The speakers have some toe in, probably meeting at the wall behind me. 

Andy

zybar

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #37 on: 8 Jan 2009, 08:14 pm »
zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance?  I wouldn't have expected that.

That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there.  One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well.   :thumb:

I know that the distance to the speaker is further away than what is normally used, but I can tell you that it sounds good.

Given my room dimensions [Dedicated space is 29'3" x 13'9"/17'6" (first 15'3 of room/second half 14')) x 8'.] this really is the way to go.

George

Nuance

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #38 on: 8 Jan 2009, 08:29 pm »
zybar - you have them only 7 feet apart and listen at around double that distance?  I wouldn't have expected that.

That is certainly some top notch gear you have going there.  One day I'll own the Modwright transporter as well.   :thumb:

I know that the distance to the speaker is further away than what is normally used, but I can tell you that it sounds good.

Given my room dimensions [Dedicated space is 29'3" x 13'9"/17'6" (first 15'3 of room/second half 14')) x 8'.] this really is the way to go.

George
Gotcha.  The only that matters is that it sounds good.  :)  Enjoy!

adydula

Re: SongTower setup for 2 channel listening
« Reply #39 on: 9 Jan 2009, 08:06 pm »
Hello,

Over the last 30 years or so I have had a dozen sets of speakers and  dozen different listening rooms that I have played with ...and most all required some toe in to make the speakers play the best.

Now what does this mean?

I some instances the lowest bass response and less boominess was only found when the speakers were toed in, while the same speaker not towed in a few degrees did not exhibit the best sounding (least distorted and lowest amplitude) bass...

Some speakers and rooms dictate them being away from the rear wall or side wall some distance....and ususally with good reason..

In most rooms there seems to be a relationship between where the speakers are for the optimum freq resonse mainly on the low end and their imaging.

It takes moving them around and listening from your listening position.

I think by toeing them in a few degrees towards your listing spot makes the sweet spot narrower than if you did not toe them in.

But again I have blind listened to the same speakers both towed in  and not and could not tell the difference most of the time, I guessed wrong...so there ya go.

The only thing I actually noticed was the bass response in rooms seems to be better or worse...

It seems like this is the one thing that is really affected by this type of placement.

If speakers that do not image well for whatever reason are pointing straight out and they are too far apart the hole in the middle will become readily apparent and these speakers need to be placed closer together to avoid the '20' ft wide piano syndrome! lol...

I no this is not scientific, but again the only real benefit i have realized is better bass response do to the (I think) the physics of the room to speaker realationhsip.

All the best
Alex