[Bobzilla]

Greetings and Happy New Year!

After much thought and research, I’ve decided to replace my aging Curcio Daniel 1 preamp with a Hagerman Clarinet and Coronet.
 
Joe’s products are superb. Among the components that I use often and will keep forever are Curcio MKIII’s, and Stereo 70’s . For over twenty years this equipment has been practically trouble-free and  performed flawlessly.

Why change?

It’s not a drastic switch, I’m just going in a slightly different direction.

I’ve gleaned an enormous amount of information from the “heavy hitters” on this forum. This material is helpful, informative and frankly, entertaining. I thank you all very much, ( ... and you know who you are! ) I also must especially thank Jim Howard (Tubesforever) for his organizing of multiple capacitor purchases and the exceptionally detailed documentation of his build process. In all honesty, it was his input that finally moved me to the Hagerman products.
 
That said, I have a few questions to aid me in the preliminary design phase of my line amp built around the Clarinet PC board. If they have been previously covered, I’ve missed them and apologies for any repetition.

1. Will the circuitry support a tape monitor loop without resulting in any frequency anomalies or impedance problems?
 
2. I intend to build on a larger chassis. This would, among other things, allow me to increase the distance of the transformer from the more sensitive circuitry. Would there be any advantage to pre-rectifying and smoothing the B+ of the 370BX before landing it onto the pc board? Wouldn’t  this take pressure off the 5Y3 but still allow for the time delay aspects? Would this exceed the tubes voltage capabilities? Would one loose the “Magic” of tube rectification? (I have no personal experience with tube rectification. All of my present equipment uses solid state diodes.)

3. Presently, the plan is to use a Goldpoint attenuator and eliminate the balance control.  If the input impedance is based upon the 50k volume control and the 50K balance control would it be advantages to use a 100K Volume control. I’ve yet to order this item and I’ve read that Jim said one “could use a 50K”. Would there be a preference?

That should cover the beginning. I’ve already begun acquiring the basic components: transformers, sockets, some capacitors, and power components. The board will be ordered mid-January. I appreciate any information or advice anyone could give me and look forward to both a new year and a new line amp!

[hagtech]

1) Yes, you could put in a tape loop.  But it will be unbuffered, possibly causing noise issues. 

2) Do not pre-rectify.  Solid state diodes will not perform as well as the tube, that's why it is there.  And you run a risk of adding a "buzz" noise. 

3) Volume can be either 50k or 100k.  Doesn't really matter.

jh

[ronpod]

Bob,

Congratulations on choosing to build the Clarinet! I used the resistances for the volume and balance controls as specified by Jim. FYI I rarely turn the volume control above the 12 o'clock position when the input signal is coming from the Cornet2 (vinyl playback). However, I sometimes turn the volume control up to the 2 o'clock position when the CD/SACD/DVD-A player (with volume reduced on the player) is the input and I want that smooth "tubey" sound. The Clarinet is a very quiet line amp! (even with the tranny in the stock position) Good luck with your build and please keep posting your progress.

Ron.

[Bill Epstein]

2. I intend to build on a larger chassis. This would, among other things, allow me to increase the distance of the transformer from the more sensitive circuitry

I've been contemplating the same thing. I had my previous Cornet in a 10x17x3 Hammond to allow for SUTs inside (all my carts are LO)

Now I have the Piccolo and the unused big Hammond. My latest Cornet went in an 8x12x3 aluminum Hammond and it's doo-doo

I just may move the tranny back and put a "dutchman" on each of the wires to reach the board. OTOH, the copper-foil-lined, steel Hammond iteration of that Cornet was dead quiet built stock.



I did notice tho', that Jim has moved the tranny to the rear panel of the enclosure on the Hagtech Cornet. 

[ronpod]

I did notice tho', that Jim has moved the tranny to the rear panel of the enclosure on the Hagtech Cornet. 

And the tranny housing is "clam shelled" on the rear chassis panel! 

[tubesforever]

Bobzilla, I am blushing....

Jim Hagerman deserves all the credit. 

First of all his stuff was quieter than any gear I compared against.  The noise floor is rediculously low.  My amp is many times noisier than the line stage or the phono stage.  This was an eye opening experience for some that paid a lot more for their gear.  Music became a lot more emotional and expressive.  When we went back and forth from their gear to the Hagermans and back, they were always impressed with how much better the Hagerman equipment sounded.

As for me I am a certifiable tweaker.  I think I actually tweak in my sleep!

My side of the equasion was trying to find the right passive components to build the equipment to sound better than a Pass Xono or a Manley Steelhead.  My actual goal was to build a line stage and phono section that sounded as good as a BAT or Shindo.   I think I am pretty close.  I have spent less than 2,000 dollars on my Hagerman' and they beat up on some gear retailing for 5,000 to 7,500 dollars.  That is good company!  I can say the Hagerman equipment was superior to every piece I compared it with. 

It consistently provided better bass, better midrange, better dynamics, clearer highs, and LESS sibilance.
I could tune the Hagerman to the system with just a few simple tube swaps.  This left people dumb struck.  They might have seen tube gear or own tube gear but they would not believe gear could change color so dramatically as the Hagerman does with a tube roll here or there. 

Things sound exceptional right in my system today.  I am finished tweaking the passive components.  Now its down to just the tubes.

Regarding attenuation:  I have 100k, 50k, and 10k Dale/Vishay stepped attenuators.  The 10k seem to sound thin for one reason or another and I am not sure why.  The 100k attenuator had full volume at 4 to 6 clicks of the 24 positions.  I did not like that because it lacked adjustability.  I am using a 50k now and like Ronpod I find I get full volume at around 12 steps of the 24 step attenuator.

Is the Goldpoint attenuator now using surface mounted ladder configured resistors?  The Eastern contingent is now using DACT attenuators.  Basically these are stepped attenuators that use Vishay surface mount resistors instead of the standard RN or other Vishay PCB style resistors.  They have much shorter circuit pathways and sound more clear and open according to the vendor.

My supplier of the Dale Vishay attenuator is so impressed with these that he stopped manufacturing the Dave Vishays and went forward only with the DACT style attenuation.

You might want to try one of these before laying out the long green for a Goldpoint.  The DACT style attenuators are about 25-45 dollars US from what I see on ebay.  I plan to try one later in the spring.

Thanks again for all the kind words Bob! 

[Bobzilla]

Tubes, you deserve all of the accolaids for the organizing of various capacitor purchases. I've been fortunate to have been involved in two of these buys and both were fast, efficient, and most appreciated!

On a side note Jim, I see that you're preparing for yet another capacitor order. More capacitors, Jim? Do you really NEED more capacitors? Is it posable that you are developing a capacitor problem? Do you have a capacitor monkey on your back? Jim, honestly, you started adding caps to Hagerman products ... then your speakers. What's next Jim?  Flashlights? Wall switches? Clocks? What about non-electric things, Jim? Tires? Books? Cats or dogs? I'm not saying it's time for an intervention, but you've been so benificial to this forum in general and me in particular that I don't want to loose you.

Ummm... I might also need ... need some more caps ... or it's just anxity, it's getting difficult to tell the differince. I'll be in touch ...

Back to reality ...

Jim, it's my understanding that Goldpoint is using surface mount resistors that some have stated "are absolutely identical to the DACT product. However, they are not constructed in a ladder configuration. If I interpreted their promotional literature correctly, the improvement of quality in resistors and contact points makes this a moot point and for that reason they (Goldpoint) no longer produced a ladder configuration attenuator. It seemed to me that ladder configuration had fallen out of favor and I thought this was why. I could certainly be incorrect. I'll have to look into this. The difference in price isn't all that substantial. The beauty of DIY is using the components you want!

Has anyone ever connected a tape deck to a clarinet and recorded? There are those that feel a properly set-up reel to reel Tape deck can equal or better the vinyl medium. Hagerman (Jim or facilitator, all due respect) spoke of noise as the negative factor. Do I assume correctly that this would be a factor of impedance load on the output of the line amp, regardless if the deck was on or off? I've been running a Curcio Daniel 1 connected to two decks without experiencing any problems that I can detect (Hear). Daniel 1 also had what is seen as a rather problematic high output impedance. Is that not the purpose of a buffer, to isolate the load of the decks input circuitry?  If I must add a buffer ... than I will. This was another reason for the larger chassis.

I'm mentally commited to the Hagerman products now.

Hmmmm product loyalty before even purchasing a board ... let a marketing class figure that one out!!!   
   

[tubesforever]

Yes, I have found a sponser for DIY Anonomous.  It is a 12 step program.  I will let you know how I am doing as the months roll along. 

Teflons, now let's see...I used 13 in my DIY speakers, two in my power amp  and  4 in my current Hagerman configuration.   I want to have about 25 more for future projects.  Help me....  BTW I am letting the speaker teflons break in for a month or so, and will then evaluate them again.  I have some PIO I can substitute if they are too forward.  So far things are sounding promising. 

If the Goldpoint is a shunt style attenuator it will have variable input resistance.  I am not sure how that will effect the overall performance of the Clarinet.   I am using a ladder, so each point of the attenuator which holds a steady input load. 

While shunt is sonically preferred by many diy types, I wanted to play everything as safe as possible since I take my gear on the road.  I never know what I will plug into when I am conducting demonstrations. 

Jim mentioned you might require a buffer for the tape / monitor functionality.  Did your last line stage provide this feature?  If not you might just want to try it and see how it flys. 

Happy New Year everyone. 

[Bobzilla]

Jim, This was on the DACT site:

"These attenuators use series resistor networks consisting of 23 non-inductive, low noise, SMD metal film resistors. The layout of the PC Boards and the choice of SMD resistors have reduced the signal path to a minimum length (typical five times shorter than conventional stepped attenuator designs). This design method achieves very low series inductance and low stray capacitance giving bandwidth beyond even the most demanding requirements."

You're correct about a ladder configuration maintaining load throughout its range and it would seem to me that could only be considered a positive attribute. Does the preceding DACT statement read like a Ladder configuration? It didn't to me. Am I missing something here? Is a pre-constructed ladder attenuator available somewhere else?
Sometimes I can be staring directly at something and miss it!

The Curcio preamp did not have a buffer as such. I presently plan to assemble it and see how it sounds. It's not like we never change or modify these things!

[hagtech]

tranny housing is "clam shelled" on the rear chassis panel!

I did it to fit the board into an even smaller chassis.  No other reason. 

non-inductive

That's funny.  Inductance is about the last thing you need to worry about in an audio attenuator.  What good is an SMD resistor when you connect it into your preamp using 6 inches of wire?  Stoopid marketing.  Seriously, wirewound resistors (the most inductive type) would be a fantastic choice for this application.  Foil or wire is better than film anyday.

It is a 12 step program

I gave up before I ever made it to step 3.

jh

[ronpod]

tranny housing is "clam shelled" on the rear chassis panel!

I did it to fit the board into an even smaller chassis.  No other reason. 

You had me convinced that clam shelling the tranny on the chassis is a brilliant way to deal with a characteristically noisy component. You just have a high level of subliminal thought...

[alpa6]

I say build it stock with the best parts you can afford.It's a easy build why make it harder.It's quiet why fool with a good thing?

[tubesforever]

Bobzilla,

Goldpoint will be able to tell you if their piece is a shunt style or a ladder style.  Basically you cannot tell just by looking because both styles use just two resistors in the pathway.  However the ladder will maintain the 50k load like Jim's specified pot.  The Shunt might sound better but doesn't maintain the loading.  From Jim's response I think he is saying that might not be a big issue. 

With the price of these things coming from Taiwan and Hong Kong you cannot go wrong trying them for youself.  Then buy the expensive piece if you feel the piece is justified.  The Chinese pieces are  definitely priced right and the ones I prefer are using Vishay smd resistors.

Jim, step 12 is when you apologize to everyone for hurting them....that is something that can never happen with the Hagerman gear.  As long as they pay attention to the voltages on the board!

[Bobzilla]

I'm sure the Goldpoint is not a ladder configuration, and I've found several potential controls for less cash. Thanks for the rapid input!

I gotta ask, and with all due respect to the professional engineering among us, how is it that one could state "Inductance is about the last thing you need to worry about in an audio attenuator" ?  Would not ANY inductance at this point be detrimental? Why would wire wound resisters even be a preferred choice? What would make that (the wirewound resister or foil preferred over film? I sense I'm really missing something basic here.

[Bobzilla]

In for a penny, in for a pound.

Today I ordered my boards, (clarinet and coronet) and wire. I expect a ladder attenuator to arrive in a couple of weeks. I still have a few decisions to make concerning such things as tape loop connections and chassis production and or purchase.
 
(Do cassettes really have a future... and I haven't used my Revox B77 in a long, long time ... do I NEED two tape loops? Thats eight more jacks and supportive switching for both.)

Oh well, one step at a time

Tick, tock ...

[tubesforever]

I am looking forward to your assessment of the Hagerman SSRP line stage vs the one's you have used in the past.

I am a big believer in sound staging and instrument placement.  I am not sure how you size up on the Audio Note silver foil 1.0 uf output caps, but if they are a bit rich ($16,000,000 a piece) just try some of the 1.0 uf  Silver in Oil Mundorf Supremes.

I am using SIO in both the output and B+ positions on my Clarinet and output and B+ positions on my Cornet 2.  I am planning to take out the SIO for the B+ positions on the Cornet 2 because I did not hear a big difference in the sound like I did using them in the Clarinet.  I gave these 6 weeks to impress me, but I had as good a sound with my Dynamicaps and teflons. 

Thank goodness, that will save me 200 bucks in parts! 

I figure this is due to the contribution of the 12AU7 buffered output stage on the Cornet 2.  On the Clarinet you hear the B+ bypasses and in the C2 they are there but less incisive.

Cheers!

[Bobzilla]

 I'm waiting for Mundorfs to go on sale again before purchasing SIO's or, frankly, any other of the "magic components" our equipment demands. I expect to see something happening at Parts Connection soon. The Audio Note caps would necessitate a sale gigantic in scope! I can't really wait for that opportunity to appear because my present preamp has become too noisy to use.
 It's build time.
 I've already received the transformers and I'm hopping that there wont be a current starvation problem as related in some of the other topics having the 370BX in common.

[tubesforever]

Well lets separate the tranny issues for others reading our posts and wondering about this discussion. 

First we have Leitmo and from what I gather his tranny does 120v just fine but not the 220v.  That is a tranny failure. 

Then we have folks like me and others adjusting the H+ step down resistor to hit a 6.0 v or whatever the owner is comfortable running.   This is simply matching the resistor to hit the level you need within your power grid.  That is the beauty of diy.  Jim can design the equipment and we can optimize it for our systems.

Here is some food for thought.  Regarding H+ voltage,  when I was running the Jupiter Beeswax 1.0uf capacitors they sounded better at 5.8 v and horrible at 6.2 v.  The Mundorf SIO seem to like 6.0.  My Dynamicaps seemed to prefer 6.2 v. 

Of course all this testing was done in my system with my amp and speakers telling the results.  System matching is everything.  Your mileage may vary and probably will.

If some one reads this post I would say that other than knowing what your H+ is after a 5 minute warm up period, you will probably never have to change a thing.  If you do, the change is easy to accomplish. 

I have adjusted my step down resistors to hit the voltages Jim specs on his board.  This was easy and only involved rolling a couple pair of resistors on the circuit board.

[Bobzilla]

 This is (to me) an odd phase of a project.

 One tries to incorporate all of the design ideas one can imagine, then mentally cut any that may adversely affect the perceived purity of the audio signal. Just when you start to feel comfortable with those decisions, along comes  reality ...
 
 Can you really afford the cash?

 What about the time? Everything takes far longer to accomplish than you thought it would during that mind numbing morning meeting at work ...

 Are your skills up to it? I always feel competent that I can achieve the sonics I'm striving for ... it's the appearance that I find challenging, and I don't mean that in a good way. If you want to try something new (for example "Front Panel Express") it may be a huge asset ... it may also become an extremely costly lesson that has NOTHING to do with the final goal ... the sound.

 I'm glad this is just a hobby, I'd starve if I depended upon this for income !!!

 I want to thank Jim Hagerman for his shipping of my boards (Clarinet and Coronet) so quickly ... and incidentally they are beautifully produced!

 I also received a 50K, 24 step ladder attenuator and a small reel of teflon coated silver wire from A&M.

 I repeatedly attempted to post pictures but I just can't seem to catch on to the method. Very frustrating! I know it's not magic ... I'm just missing some detail or misinterpreting something.

Oh well, it's cheaper to try to post images then to order capacitors!!!             

[Bobzilla]

Will this become an image?

Do you believe in Magic?


[img]http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=17915/img]