[TheChairGuy]

Brilliant!

Any way the outcome ends up - this is a can't miss topic for me.

Way to go, guys (Paul and Frank)

John

[yooper]

Kudos to Frank for his willingness to offer an evaluation. 

But, with the many years of R&D frank has under his belt, the knowledge he has acquired over the years, and as stubborn as Frank can be regarding cables, do you guys really think Frank will (let himself) hear a difference after all these years?  I'm thinking his mind is already made up.

I certainly mean no disrespect to Frank as I think most of us can recall something we don't believe in or like, and no matter what, we will stand our ground based on our beliefs/thinking.  It appears discussion of "cables" cause almost as much controversy here as politics and religion do, it really pisses people off.  

The only solution I can think of is introducing a third DAC and have someone else do the switching to make Frank listen more closely.  

Well... now that I think about it, perhaps that wont work either as I'm sure Frank will know his DAC from others.

I don't know, just talking out loud and sharing my thoughts.

Mark

[Occam]

Mark,

I made my offer to Frank, and I'll not question his evaluation. I've been familiar with Frank's work for over 40 years, ever since he started making excellent mods to Dynaco tube equipment. Certainly, I hope he'll involve others in the listening sessions, as doing powercord evaluations is one of the most boring exercises known to man. And if whatever prejudice precludes him from noticing subtle differences, then upgrade cords simply aren't worth the bother. While we (for the time being) disagree as to the efficacy of upgrade powercords, I've never doubted that he is a stand-up guy and I don't think the changes will be subtle; I expect them to smack him upside the head. Let the chips (or cords) fall where they may.

Regards,
Paul

[BobM]

I don't want to put words in your mouth Frank, but if you don't believe in cords you may not believe in break-in of cords too. Please give Paul's cord at least 2 days (48 hours) of continual play after you hook it up before you make any judgements.

Or better yet, Paul, break it in before you send it to Frank.

Dying to see the results of this one, to see if an engineer becomes a convert. Next up, capacitor comparisons Frank.  

Bob

[markC]

This shall be good....
The Wiley old Coyote, (veteran-cantankerous), vs. the roadrunner, ( new ideas and applications -cocky).

[JIMV]

I believe in power cord differences. My PS Audio product in my system have created a changed sound. I am interested in the results of this test.

[Occam]

Paul,

How about offer up some data like a white paper, anything with science in it would do, rather than a "golden ear" approach. Also there is the old saying about catching more flies with honey rather then vineagar.

Wayner 

Wayner,

I don't do White Papers, aka marketing hyperbole...yet.
But I will respond in line with Frank's "FAQ #2  Why don't you publish specifications?"
http://www.avahifi.com/root/faq/faq2.htm

....
Remember, any $79 off-shore receiver you buy will have good specs, as will that injection-molded 7 speaker surround sound system.

If however, there is some specification you really need to know for equipment compatibility reasons, simply ask us, we can provide the numbers if you need them.

The cordage I'll be supplying is  star quad.  Note - this is not the same cordage as in my commercial grounded IEC cords, a different topology specific to the usage. The cordage is UL/CSA rated and listed.
Compared to the cords presently supplied on AVA components -

ampacity - materially higher
inductance - materially lower
line-neutral capacitance - materially higher (Mmmmmm.... distributed capacitance)

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Paul

[lazydays]

this same subject has came up hundreds of times over the years, and I've discussed and cussed it with many electrical engineers I used to work with. They pretty much side with Frank as long (you knew there'd have to be a stipulation didn't you?) as the wires are of good quality and not some Chinese garbage. Also need tobe of the same gauge and length as well as strand content and shieldings. The best wire we ever found at work was from Alpha Core (nothing came close), and the best wire we ever found for power cords of anykind were made from TPC stock (for several reasons). In my audio system I've been thru a lot of power cables thru the years, and can safley say I've only heard a difference in two brands, and that was slight. One was a Stealth cable and the others were custom built Gronenbergs that had ends to my own specs. I don't know that they really had a better quality sound, but they were sheilded better than 98% out there (and that's what I was after)
gary

[bregez]

I’m with Wayner on this one.
It would be nice to take a quantitative approach and present the results in the form of a write up.  Maybe comparing output signals with a known input and doing a few FFT’s etc.   I trust Mr. Van Alstine’s ears, but don’t want others to think the study is only based on his opinion.
As a Ph.D. educated engineer, I am skeptical that a power cord could make a difference in the overall output of the DAC.  If you blame the power cord, you may as well blame the wiring in your house, the power service to your house, the transformer on the pole (or the green box in the backyard), the substation, the over head power lines, the power plant station, etc....   I can go on and on.  
I am also excited to see the results of this test.
Brad

[lazydays]

I believe in power cord differences. My PS Audio product in my system have created a changed sound. I am interested in the results of this test.

I'd suggest you do a search on that brand of cables on the Asylum.
gary

[woodsyi]

this same subject has came up hundreds of times over the years, and I've discussed and cussed it with many electrical engineers I used to work with. They pretty much side with Frank as long (you knew there'd have to be a stipulation didn't you?) as the wires are of good quality and not some Chinese garbage. Also need tobe of the same gauge and length as well as strand content and shieldings. The best wire we ever found at work was from Alpha Core (nothing came close), and the best wire we ever found for power cords of anykind were made from TPC stock (for several reasons). In my audio system I've been thru a lot of power cables thru the years, and can safley say I've only heard a difference in two brands, and that was slight. One was a Stealth cable and the others were custom built Gronenbergs that had ends to my own specs. I don't know that they really had a better quality sound, but they were sheilded better than 98% out there (and that's what I was after)
gary

Gary,

Can you keep your Chinese slurs out of your comments?  Every country produces garbage, not just China.  Thanks.

P.S.  Sorry for the intrusion.  I am very interested in the outcome of this experiment.

[rms]

I know very little about electrical engineering but I have been a musician for many years so I know what sounds good and I have recently gotten my reproduction system to a point that I am very happy with the sound it puts out. So I am curious about this topic as I am about anything that might improve my sound system.

I recently remodeled my house and did some of the wiring myself. I installed good quality Romex 12 gauge to my music studio with quality receptacles. Now, ... the power comes into the house on triplex, to the distribution box, along the rails to the breakers, then out to the receptacles on the romex. So the majority of the power run is on unshielded solid core copper wire from the power plant to my receptacle. My question is how does a short run of high tech cable from the receptacle to my components make a difference in sound quality when there is already many feet of Romex between the incoming triplex and the receptacle? What about just taking more Romex and making a power cable out of that? How do the big recording and mastering studios handle power distribution? I know they have power conditioning systems in place for all their components but do they also use aftermarket cables?

I 'm just curious to know how the last 6 or so feet of the power run can make a difference in sound quality. If it really does it will be on my list of things to upgrade.

[BobM]

I think if we could adequately explain the reasons why we hear what we do in engineering terms, it would already have been done. I think we can say that the current measurements of capacitance, inductance, resistance, and physical characteristics of guage, stranded vs solid core, shielding, type of metal, physical layout, dielectric, etc. can explain some of the differences. And yes, there are tried and true reasons why excess capacitance leads to one type of sound while excess inductance leads to another. The interaction with transformers and other electrical components would probably not be poo-poo'ed by any engineer, because this is explainable.

What isn't fully explained is what combination of the above traits will work best (and best may be only defined by our own ears) in any given situation. This is not scientifically available to us at this point. There is also a very real possibility that some type of new measurement unit to help explain it has not yet been defined.

Are these cords filters - probably to some extent. Are the boosters of some characteristic of the sound - probably to some extent. Do they make a difference - yes, to many ears. Why is one better than another in your system - who knows? But the same could be said of one amp or preamp or CD player over another, or one interconnect over another, or CD vs computer based digital playback (where the digital bits are identical based upon currently available measurements).

Hopefully this inadequate description of the variables involved makes some sense. In any case, like in anything, try it for yourself and let your ears decide. Even if you hear a difference it may be insignificant to you and not worth the cost, then again, it may be well worthwhile, or it could point out flaws in your current system that you didn't hear before ("... and I'm on the road to find out", e.g. Cat Stevens).

Bob

[JIMV]

I believe in power cord differences. My PS Audio product in my system have created a changed sound. I am interested in the results of this test.

I'd suggest you do a search on that brand of cables on the Asylum.
gary

To discover what? Folk will either agree or not and not a bit of that opinion matters in my system and my ears. I hear audio change with the cords and I like the change. The cost of these entry cables was minimal and the cables will remain in my system probably forever, moving from new component to new component. I have never heard a pricey PS Audio cable but their entry series is very nice indeed.

Too much of the argument on these tweaks is of the "Who you going to believe, me or your lying ears?" type. I'll go with my hearing.

[Philistine]

Paul,

How about offer up some data like a white paper, anything with science in it would do, rather than a "golden ear" approach. Also there is the old saying about catching more flies with honey rather then vineagar.

Wayner 

Wayner, it would be interesting if you get the opportunity to participate in the test also by listening to the DAC with the OEM power cord and the power cord being evaluated.

[JIMV]

I do have a question...if you had only one premium cable, to which component would you attach it and why??

[martyo]

I do have a question...if you had only one premium cable, to which component would you attach it and why??

That is a good question for a new thread.

[JIMV]

OK

[avahifi]

OK guys, now just wait until I get the power cord, install it, and give it a fair evaluation.

Actually I hope it works, it certainly would be nice to be able to make the equipment perform better yet.

I only recently learned that low level DC on your AC power lines has a very adverse effect on the operation of big toroid power transformers.  I know that RFI garbage on the power line is a bad thing too.

If a power cord can filter out some of the garbage well, it might very well have a chance of being a good system improvement.

My question all along has simply been that so many of the claims just had no real basis.

No I promise not to dissect the sample power cord.  I am trying to think of a good way to look at its filter effect.  Perhaps see how much it attenuates a very high frequency square wave in comparison to a standard power cord.  Of course the final result is can I hear any useful difference.  Of course there will be more than just me doing the listening, and under double blind conditions on all of my pet torture test CDs.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[lazydays]

this same subject has came up hundreds of times over the years, and I've discussed and cussed it with many electrical engineers I used to work with. They pretty much side with Frank as long (you knew there'd have to be a stipulation didn't you?) as the wires are of good quality and not some Chinese garbage. Also need tobe of the same gauge and length as well as strand content and shieldings. The best wire we ever found at work was from Alpha Core (nothing came close), and the best wire we ever found for power cords of anykind were made from TPC stock (for several reasons). In my audio system I've been thru a lot of power cables thru the years, and can safley say I've only heard a difference in two brands, and that was slight. One was a Stealth cable and the others were custom built Gronenbergs that had ends to my own specs. I don't know that they really had a better quality sound, but they were sheilded better than 98% out there (and that's what I was after)
gary

Gary,

Can you keep your Chinese slurs out of your comments?  Every country produces garbage, not just China.  Thanks.

P.S.  Sorry for the intrusion.  I am very interested in the outcome of this experiment.

G.P.U.A.R
glt