B&W Speakers

dthoms · « **on:** 29 Dec 2008, 07:35 pm »

I currently use the an old pair (8 years) of B&W 802 speakers. I rarely, if ever see any comments about them. The question is, should I stay or look for something else? In my opinion, they are a little bass shy.

alexone · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 08:14 pm »

hi, dthoms!

how do you know that they are bass shy? did you have a different setup to compare? if so...then what kind of amplifiers etc. did you use?
and what is your current setup?

al.

Philistine · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 09:54 pm »

I had B&W speakers for years - CDDM7/CDM9/803's, to my ears they do have a consistent 'house sound' which I found to be more top end related (too bright and harsh) rather than bass light. I ran the 803's as the front left/right in a HT 5.1 setup powered by a Bryston 4BSST, and did find the bass to be on the light side with this amp - given that bass is a strength of the Bryston I put this down to a mismatch. Replacing the Bryston with an Anthem P5 fixed the bass (a great multi-channel amplifier). What I take from this is that getting the amp right was critical.

A couple of years ago I decided to try something different and auditioned a pair of Salk HT3's (at the house of an ex-B&W owner) who also shared my views on the B&W house sound, and followed this up with an audition at Jim's house. The biggest initial improvement for me was the openess, clarity and naturalness of the top end - this is why I bought them. The other bonus I discovered later was the bass, faster and deeper than my old B&W's. I used to listen to the faults in my 803's and now just listen to music from the HT3's. I did have a REL subwoofer that I used to back up the 803's, this is now redundant, the sub was probably more relevant with the 803's than your 802's?

I still believe B&W make great HiFi speakers and would recommend any potential buyer take a listen. If you just want to work on the bass then I would possibly consider the amp first, if you want a complete change then you might want to cast the net wider to other brands.

Trust this helps in someway.

dthoms · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 02:27 am »

My setup is...
Meridian 596
Bryston BDA-1
Bryston BP-26
Bryston 14b SST
B&W 802

When I auditioned the BP-26, the sales person loaned me some Transparent Audio Ultra. I thought the mid's had a lot more pop and the bass seemed better. I'm currently usings some no name xlr to the apm now. Maybe I should try different cables. I certainly wouldn't want to purchase the $2,000 Transparents. Although, i use the Transparent Music Link Plus for my connect from the BDA-1 to the BP-26. I'm not really sure which direction to go. I could probably audition some cables to the amp, but now the pre is about 15 feet from amp. Impossible to find audition cables that long and I am too lazy to move everything back.

Oh, well. The sad part is that I don't want to be a cable fanatic. I would prefer to think that all cables are the same.

Maybe, I'll buy some Bryston cables and see how that works.

Phil A · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 02:44 am »

Quote from: dthoms on 29 Dec 2008, 07:35 pm

I currently use the an old pair (8 years) of B&W 802 speakers. I rarely, if ever see any comments about them. The question is, should I stay or look for something else? In my opinion, they are a little bass shy.

It may very well be the room. In my secondary basement system - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1772&pos=0

I have B&W P6s which are probably 15 years old. When I've had my old Micromega DAC hooked to a good transport down there people don't believe the sub is not playing and I've just using an old Marantz 7300 OSE receiver in direct mode - so nothing really exotic.

dthoms · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 03:06 am »

I hate to think it might be the room. I was always concerned about my room. My room is 11x20, but there is an 8 foot opening on the side wall towards the back of the room. That opening is to an 18 foot open foyer. I can imagine all of the sound just bouncing all around. I do not want to close the room off, but I might need to. Should I get a professional out to do an evaluation of the room dynamics?

Phil A · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 03:52 am »

Quote from: dthoms on 30 Dec 2008, 03:06 am

I hate to think it might be the room. I was always concerned about my room. My room is 11x20, but there is an 8 foot opening on the side wall towards the back of the room. That opening is to an 18 foot open foyer. I can imagine all of the sound just bouncing all around. I do not want to close the room off, but I might need to. Should I get a professional out to do an evaluation of the room dynamics?

You don't have to go that far initially. If you don't have access to a real time analyzer (RTA) then a sound pressure level (SPL) meter with a test disc can help. Rivesaudio.com sells a $21 disc that compensates for the microphone in the Radio Shack meter. There are test tones you can also download and use with an SPL meter to get a vague idea. The room is the most overlooked audio component. Delos Records also has a title "Surround Spectacular" which has one disc of surround music and one disc of test tones including a bass tone countdown from just above 160Hz down. Using that with an SPL meter can give you a general idea of problem areas. Readyacoustics.com sells some DIY traps that are not hard to put together. I have a bunch of the midrange ones (less dense Owens Corning Fiberglass) and you can see a couple in the picture of my main system. If the problems are frequency specific, there's also barrel shaped diffusers by acousticsfirst.com (you can build your own out of thin masonite and a wood frame and fiberglass and just curve the masonite so it protrudes out about 7 inches. A 2x4 foot barrel shaped diffuser will have its center frequency of greatest impact around 125Hz. A 3x6 one will be at about 63Hz. I bought the bullet and got a one-third octave RTA many moons ago. At first I drove myself nuts but I've taken are of the main system. I have not used it in the bedroom or basement systems. You can see I took care of some initial reflections in the basement system. I don't critically listen down there enough (at least right now but I will be moving the DAC and my Sony 2000ES back down there in the next few months) to take the initiative to do more. I do have a couple of ASC tube traps in the bedroom system. I have not used the RTA in there yet (it's more for background music and I picked up the tube traps used) but I have used the Delos Records test disc with an SPL meter a while back to get some sense of problems. I don't think the openings will automatically cause a problem. My main room is about 16x20 with a 19 ft. ceiling and opening into other spaces including a large kitchen area, a 2-story foyer and a flight of stairs which leads to a hallway and a loft in addition to other rooms. My main room (Thiel 3.7s, 2 Rel Storm III subs crossed over at 22Hz, Bryston 14BSST, Bryston SP1.7, etc.) measures flat from the listen chair with my RTA from 25-80 Hz.

mclsound · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 11:27 am »

i auditioned 802D with krell and then 14bsst/bp26.
also with Mark Levinson pre/Mcintosh 501 mono's and Mac cd player.

I found the mac combo was a complete sound where as the krell and bryston made the bass in the 802 sound like slapping cardboard boxes.
Having owned a Classe ca-400,I now understand why BMW will work with them for this is the kind of sound needed...soft
john

dthoms · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 01:05 pm »

Room correction seems to me magic and physics, neither of which I understand. The SPL will tell me the volume of a particular frequency. Ok, that's the extent of my knowledge. I sample the frequency, then what do I do to make the corrections? What will the levels tell me? HELP!!!!

Philistine · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 02:12 pm »

Based on the 14B SST you have I would have thought that this would be more than adequate to drive the 802's, and not the culprit for the lack of bass you have. As the opening in your room could be a factor by sucking out some of the bass response then another option would be to add a music sub, in the right position this could help reinforce the 802's.

Another option is to contact Ethan Winer on the forum to get his advice about room treatments, or contact him via his website:
http://www.realtraps.com/

NB
B&W and Classe have the same ownership, and B&W speakers are voiced with Classe amps - this is why they work well together.

jethro · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 04:16 pm »

dthoms:

There is a circle dedicated to acoustics:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=73.0

mclsound · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 05:18 pm »

the ca-400 was built in 1995,and his 802 are not new. The synergy is what it is!
The krell and Bryston was also played on Krell resolution 2 a month earlier,all the same gear,same room,same store,only the speakers were changed.
I would have taken the Krells over B&W anyday after the horrible sound i heard.BUT,only because i heard them before on the ML/Mac,i would listen to them on a soft amp.....ONLY.
I think bryston/PMC have synergy.
Classe/B&W
Mac-ML/B&W
Just from what i heard only
john

dthoms · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 07:33 pm »

Sadly, I really love my Bryston stuff. My original listening space was setup for HT with all B&W speakers, e.g. 802, htm1, 803. I eventually will setup my surround again, but i hate the idea of replacing all the B&W gear too. Truth to tell, I would replace the B&W stuff before the Bryston Stuff.

James Tanner · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 07:48 pm »

Quote from: dthoms on 30 Dec 2008, 01:05 pm

Room correction seems to me magic and physics, neither of which I understand. The SPL will tell me the volume of a particular frequency. Ok, that's the extent of my knowledge. I sample the frequency, then what do I do to make the corrections? What will the levels tell me? HELP!!!!

Hi d,

With the test tones all your trying to do is make the SPL (volume) settings of all the bass tones equal in level. So your moving the speakers (and listening position) around till you get most of them to have the same SPL level on the Radio Shack meter.

Most problems in rooms are at frequencies below 150Hz so if you can get most tones at equal level below that point it makes for a much better sound quality. IT IS NOT AN EASY TASK - but try and get the 50Hz, 60Hz up to 100 Hz as close as you can.

james

Phil · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 11:17 pm »

dthoms,

Since others are addressing the possibility of room interaction, and since I have improved the bass from my 803s without moving them (the room prevents that possibility), I can say that bass (and the HF performance) can be improved greatly by eliminating electrical noise. In my case, I found that cleaning the power delivered to my source provided the most improvement (my source includes a preamp function). Others have found similar gains with amps, but that hasn't worked in my case.

Some of the steps I took in descending order of effect:

-- having dedicated circuits installed (biggest bang for the buck by far).
-- adding a balanced power unit (equitech). My source simply doesn't sound the same without it even with the dedicated power.
-- adding one of Alan Maher's PEs to the outlet powering the equitech.
-- adding a Highwire power wrap on my audience PC for the source.
-- placing a shakti stone on the top of the source.

I realize some folks may find a few of the above to be voodoo but all of these did make a difference in my system and to my ears. I believe cables make a difference too. I just upgraded my speaker cables and the bass is now powerful and deep. Just for reference, my room opens to other rooms and has cathedral ceilings. I found the 803 to be very easy to place. I'm sure room treatments would improve the sound but the listening space (living room) does not allow for that (so says the wife).

Happy listening and Happy New Year.
Phil

amdan · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Dec 2008, 04:14 am »

I drive my B&W 802N speakers with a Bryston 14B ST (which as you may know is an SST design). I am extremely happy with the system. Though, I think I know what you mean when you say they are bass shy. I believe it is the Bryston that does this. The bass is very tight and detailed. It lacks the body of the Classe. However, I think the Classe sacrifices details and accuracy for bass weight and body. If you are happy with this trade off, by all means have a look at the Classe. I auditioned the Classe and sent it straight back. I preferred the tightness of the Bryston's bass. Another problem I had with the Classe is that it rolled off the top end. I wrote about my experience in the B&W forum (and possibly this one too). You may want to look it up.

Note that the above comparision was made after I had eliminated the top end noise (harshness) problems with my system. I found that the B&W/Bryston combination was quite harsh at first. I was able to eliminate this problem by using power conditioning and filtering power cables. This step also solidified and deepened the bass. I also find that top end harshness reduces the impact of your system's bass. I believe this has something to do with how our ears handle sound (this is conjecture on my part). I think that both the Bryston and B&W are very revealing and accurate components - so if you feed them rubbish they faithfully reproduce it!

Do also have a look at your room effects, as this can have a major impact. You may have nulls (i.e. sound waves cancelling out) in the bass area.

I hope this helps.

dthoms · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Dec 2008, 09:44 pm »

This was very helpful. I'm glad to see someone with a similar setup provide some insight. I do not have any power conditioning. I still use the factory power, even though I had an electrician run new outlets. I will have to look into this. I've started using a sub with the speakers and I hate it. I'm also going to try some different cables from the pre to the amp.

Thanks again. This sounds like a long journey.

amdan · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Jan 2009, 06:58 am »

I am glad you found my post useful and thanks for saying so. It makes me feel that my effort was worthwhile.

It is a long journey to satisfaction. It took me 5.5 years but it was very enjoyable. In fact, I am currently at a bit of a loss because I am very happy with my system. It seems my upgrading/tweaking days may be over.

Good luck!

smerlas · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Apr 2009, 12:26 am »

I auditioned the Classe amp as well, and returned it after a weekend in my system.

I have made very slight changes in the speaker placement relative to the wall behind it and found that a move of as little as 6-inches had a huge difference.

I originally placed my B&W804s at the recommended placement off the rear wall and found that after extended listening periods their was too much bass. I moved the speakers out from the rear wall and it had a huge effect. You may want to move them closer to the rear wall to see if it increases the bass.

You may also want to modify your listening postion and try its effect. I never would have thought that minor positioning changes would have such a large effect on the "sound".

As with anything else only move in one direction at a time and give listening a chance to see what has changed.

SF · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Apr 2009, 02:12 am »

I would second the recommendation for measuring. You would be amazed at how poor your set-up performs in a given room. I just moved to a new place and have been trying to optimize speaker and listener positions for 2 weeks. I have also invested in a radioshack SPL meter, which through a soundcard and REW software (freeware) allows me to do whole frequency range sweeps. The first sweep showed major dips 20-150Hz, some approaching 20dB. Now I am left with a deep hole between 40 to 80Hz. Two widish wells reaching down to 15db remain between 40 to 80, but it's better than what I started with. I had underestimated room effects until I measured it. I think I will be investing in some room acoustics to get a flatter response.