Dual 12xx or 701 or maybe someone here has a TT...

orthobiz · « **on:** 26 Dec 2008, 06:16 pm »

Please direct me to other threads if this topic's been beaten to death.

Am thinking about a refurbished unit from fixmydual.com. Bill over there is sending me a price list this weekend.

My first TT was a 1215S and since I just bought mcp's Kenwood power amp of same vintage, waves of nostalgia are coming over me.

In general, I don't tinker with the equipment and eBay frightens me. I need it ready to go out of the box. I'm looking for around 200 bucks. Waddaya guys think?

Paul

orthobiz · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 01:31 am »

So, any idler wheel people out there? Is a refurbished Dual a good idea?

Paul

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 04:10 am »

ToothyPaul

Bill/FixMyDUAL is a class act.

I had a 1229 (given to me...non-working) and I sent it in to Bill ($100 towards trade). I could've bought a fully refurbed 1229 (Idler) for $300...or a 701 (DD) for $400 (with the upgraded $95 plinth Bill sells).

On Bill's recommendation I bought the 701 for $400. Despite the clunky looks (I'm not a fan of the old DUAL's looks), the auto operation is super smooth and brilliant. The motor is phenominally quiet - quite a piece of work that EDS motor is. Frankly, I didn't play with it long enough to know exactly how well it plays, but in the limited time I had it I didn't hear any etch or stridency....a major no-no for me

http://fixmydual.com/

I added some plast-i-clay to the inside plinth (unseen unless you want to) and some constrained layer damping to the underside of the plastic-y top plate.

Send me a PM if you want...I know own 5 tables now and this one is extra to my needs. I have a very hi-quality ADC TRX-1 cartridge (high compliance as the arm tends to want) on there too if you need/want a package. The TRX series was the last before ADC left the phono cartridge business...made in Japan; some thing ADC's best.

I have a copy of the manual, too - thanks to VinylEngine

Regards, John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 03:51 pm »

Ooops - BoneyPaul I mean

I got your PM...I remembered from long ago you were a Doc, but (I thought) I remembered Orthodontist.

I'm out for a few days away beginning tomorrow - not sure if I can get pics for you of the DUAL 701 & ADC TRX-1 if that's needed (?)

In the meantime, if you haven't read up on the unit already....

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/analog-sources/turntables/dual/701/PRD_121311_1597crx.aspx

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/701.shtml

John

orthobiz · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 05:04 pm »

Thanks!

Paul

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 07:10 pm »

Sure - btw, it's Bill/FixMyDUAL's favorite DUAL ever....and he talked me into it as my original intent was to try a fully refurbed 1229 in place of the 1229 I sent in as trade-in.

The EDS1000 motor is a winner and the rest of it, aside from the looks (which are a mighty subjective point) is well thought thru. A real thorough engineering job from 35 years ago

John

Wayner · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 09:40 pm »

Sorry, I always thought that Dual turntables were "rumble buckets" and my friend who owned a 1229 was jealous of my 69 dollar AR-XA. Personally, fixing up these 35 year old POS's isn't worth the money spent. For a couple hundred dollars more you'd be in the ballpark for a brand new Technics SL-1200. That is 100 times the machine the Dual could ever want to be, in all regards to wow, flutter, rumble, tracking and then the junk factor. Duals were considered slightly better than Garrards and BICs of the day and that ain't sayin' much. I guess if it were my money, I'd look else where. Audio Technica has a nice clone Technics (share many parts) of the SL-1200 for about $300. I think it's the AT120 something?

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Dec 2008, 11:06 pm »

Thank you Reverend Wayner (preaching from the pulpit of fire

)

I'd rate the DUAL 701, which is a DIRECT DRIVE deck, well in league with the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II (as you know I own both)

Rumble is specified at -50db (unweighted) and this particular one comes with a heavier surround plinth which serves to improve that figure thru damping effects.

As well, the fully automatic function, ADC TRX-1 cartridge and captive IC leads (soldered Monster Cable leads at my request) make this as much a set-up and play turntable (along with the suspended design) as any out there. As good as the Technics SL-1200 and gobs cheaper, too. This particular deck has been 100% refurbished to better-than-original spec by the DUAL-only repair guy called FixMyDUAL.

It features a remarkably smooth electronic, low speed (DC) motor, with feedback-controlled speed precision. Compared to the unshielded, vibration-inducing AC synchronous motor (cannot use Grado's with it - among other matters) in the AR really is a silly comparo - it's like comparing apples to sirloin steak.

Thanks for your concern...but, go do some research (or at least read the prior posts) before you thread-crap

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/701.shtml

John

orthobiz · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 01:27 am »

Wow! First I was feeling bad about no replies to my post, now I've got Wayner v. John. Good thing I know you guys love each other.

Anyway, since I've got your attention, what about an entry table like Rega P1 or Pro-ject?

Paul

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 12:42 pm »

I don't think he's talking about any Dual direct drive deck, John. he's talking about the 35 year old stamped steel plinth tin buckets from the days when I went to college. While Dual may have made a nice DD table, that is regardless to what Paul wanted to know.

I still wouldn't waste one dime on one of them old TT's, not worth it at all.

-Still love ya-

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 04:09 pm »

Wayner - I luv' you, too - and it's as fricticious as the relationship with my own brother (a piece of work that boy is!

)

The title name is Dual 12xx or 701 or maybe someone here has a TT...

My first reply to Paul/orthobiz was:

Quote from: TheChairGuy

I could've bought a fully refurbed 1229 (Idler) for $300...or a 701 (DD) for $400 (with the upgraded $95 plinth Bill sells).

Anyhow, now matter now...

Paul - The Rega P1 has no move-up possibilities except selling when you tire of it....at the very least get a Rega P2 as there are many upgrades one can do to improve it and time and tastes allow. Until you get to the higher price points in Pro-ject's line do differences between it and Rega show up...so if you're stuck at a low price point to get your foot back in the vinyl door, I'd buy a Rega (resale is usually excellent, too)

Besides that, the Technics SL-1200 (manual) and this DUAL 701 (fully auto) are better made. I've not heard either Rega or Pro-ject in comparison....but I own the Technics and DUAL and of the two, it was the Technics that had a slight 'etch' and slightly dark/dull presentation that I just couldn't shake (and I was using a $2800 arm and upgraded $300 power supply and strobe disabler with it)

There is the Audio technica PL120 turntable, too, which can be found for $200 (new) around...but it seems to have 'consistency' issues:
http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-AT-PL120-Professional-Direct-Drive-Turntable/dp/B00012EYNG

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATPL120HIFI&Category_Code=TURN (all setup and ready to go for under $300)

John

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Dec 2008, 04:13 pm »

And my comments where directed at the 12xx type tables as you could tell from my description.

orthobiz · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 04:08 am »

BTW, my foot has never been out of the door. I've had my Linn Sondek since 1979. Currently with a Lingo2, Trampolin1, Cirkus, Rega RB600 and Linn Adikt.

I wasn't clear on the original post: this TT is for my daughter!

Paul

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 04:15 am »

Quote from: orthobiz on 30 Dec 2008, 04:08 am

BTW, my foot has never been out of the door. I've had my Linn Sondek since 1979. Currently with a Lingo2, Trampolin1, Cirkus, Rega RB600 and Linn Adikt.

I wasn't clear on the original post: this TT is for my daughter!

Paul

Cool - didn't realize (either)

The LPGear enhanced AT PL120 for $300 is probably a great value...and they set it all up for you (cartridge fitted, tonearm balanced, tracking force applied) and ship it. It's a manual tho - but the replacement stylus assembly isn't astronomical if she goes to sleep a few dozen times with her player on

Us vinylphool Dads should encourage that anyhow

Slightly uneven quality control I've read (read the Amazon reviews), but if LPGear tests it before leaving, it should be fine.

TONE Audio gave the AT a very favorable review...they liked it more than the Technics SL-1200 on which it is obviously based:

http://tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_011.pdf

John

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 08:09 am »

Respectfully, I must disagree with John and agree with Wayner.

I owned a Dual 701 in the late 1970s, and then bought a Technics SL-1800 Mark II in the early 1980s. After having the Technics a while, I cheerfully sold the Dual. My recollection was that the Technics was better than the Dual in subtle ways: a little quieter, less sensitive to tapping on the unit and foot falls, speed was bang on because of the quartz locking, faster start up, and the arm seemed better. And I didn't care for the semi automatic auto return of the Dual that sometimes automatically lifted off the very last couple groves before it finished playing them, particularly if the record had any warping, or if the hole was less than centered. The Dual has its own removable head shell that may have less mass than the more standard head shell used by Technics. The Technics SL-1800 Mark II is much like the 1200 Mark II: same platter, motor and arm I understand, with slightly less speed control, and maybe not as much isolation, but cosmetically classier.

If John thinks the Dual 701 compares favorably to his Technics 1200, then maybe he has a subpar 1200, or has an exceptional Dual, or perhaps my Dual was a bit of a lemon.

I still have the 1800, though I don't listen to it. I now prefer an Oracle special edition with the extra power supply, and SME arm.

Just my 2 cents.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Dec 2008, 05:46 pm »

lifewithmusic,

It's okay to disagree....life is full of opinions....express them without remorse here!

As the DUAL 701 has been packed up for some time, I decided to unearth it and put in in rotation yesterday. I've played about 8 hours with it...and probably had about 20 hours on it after it was received here 6 months ago from FixMyDUAL.

I very carefully went over the unit to make sure I had set-up parameters right. I have an ADC TRX-1 (beryllium cantilever, line stylus and tracks at 1-1.4 grams) cartridge on it. The cartridge is aligned in the carrier right with the correct geometry. Anti-skate is set at 0.85 (I find 2/3 of the tracking force is about right with cartridges/arms). Tracking force sounded best at 1.3 grams...the DUAL counterweight is off-base, but the Shure tracking gauge got it right

I previously found that judicious use of EAR damping bits on the tonearm and on the tonearm mounting board were quite helpful for the arm sonics...so 4 choice 'dots' were employed. Almost any captive arm benefits from this tweek. The 33 1/3 strobe needs to be set while a record is playing...to counteract the effect of stylus drag (very noticeable difference....you can see the table slowing during loud applause sections on live albums). The strobe is, quite frankly, a delight

as is the fully auto-function.

Mind you, this particular example of DUAL 701 has an uprated walnut base.....much heavier/denser than the standard United Audio plinth (which was either pressboard or plastic). I bypassed the stock (plastic) feet for 4 brass toes pointed straight down into a maple block. I also thru a Herbie's Way Excellent mat on top of the stock DUAL rubber one.....rubber damps the platter well, but provides a terrible interface with the record, typically.

Among the Direct Drive tables I have tried....the DUAL has the widest and tallest soundstage I've heard. It doesn't have the HUGE stage that the VPI HW-19 Mk. III projects, but it's admirable. In very complex passages, the arm can't quite keep up and it gets' confused' sounding.

I'm playing a very challenging Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea 'In Concert' disc and I have to say that the playback is of high quality. Unlike the Technics SL-1200, which was supercharged by the use of a $2800 Origin Live arm, the DUAL lacks any 'etch' that I hear regularly with the Technics.

Listening quite intently to it - I have to honestly say that I'm pleased with it and a bit more tinkering may yield even better results. So, I respectfully disagree with your disagreement

...the DUAL is a capable performer in light of it's attractive price and enhanced sonics likely from the new plinth/surround from FixMyDUAL.

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Dec 2008, 02:43 am »

Paul,

The original plinth/surround was a pressboard or plastic affair that was walnut toned. The new one is actually walnut (Bill/FixMyDUAL is a woodworker for his day job

) and was a $95 upcharge to the deck. The original one maybe weighed 1 lb....this one is no heavyweight, but probably weighs 4-5 lbs total. To that I have added about 1 lb more of plasticlay to provide additional damping.

This is the biggest soundstage of any of the DD machines I have owned and keeps speed dead-on. I have judiciously applied 6 constrained layer dots to the tonearm.....a weak spot in the arm design. It may need a couple more...but, too many applied tend to overdamp the arm I have found. There is a sweet spot in here somewhere

IC leads (Monster Cable) have been hard-wired in...the placement of the rca's on these old DUAL's are hell to use modern, big bodies IC's with....and I'm a fan of less joints and connections when you can with vinyl.

I kid you not at all when I tell you this, but it may well be the best sounding deck in my collection now. The soundstage is almost as large as the VPI's - I seriously had thought it was impossible to get a soundstage this large with a Direct Drive deck.

There is a blob of (black) sticky mastic stuff on the end of the cartridge....it damps the cartridge body nicely. I use this goo on nearly all my cartridges (nothing but helps them). The headshell carrier is in good shape...in case you don't remember what a DUAL headshell carrier was on these old DUAL's: http://cgi.ebay.com/Dual-Turntable-Headshell-TK14-TK24-TK-14-24-NEW_W0QQitemZ150306757555QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurntables?hash=item150306757555&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Jan 2009, 07:47 pm »

I thought I'd keep this updated for a reference place in the future for anyone with a DUAL 701 in the future. The following is something I wrote to 'orthobiz' in a PM:

Performance is now very, very good. The entire bottom has been treated with constrained layer EAR damping compounds. But still, this was not enough. Playback was weak/un-dynamic and warbled sounding

I learned to use the pitch control...only with the record playing and needle in the groove. Quite a difference in speed regulation that way. As it is not quartz locked like later DD tables in the late-70's/80's onward, the speed still moves around a bit. It is best to err so the deck is running ever-so-slightly fast....as when you hit a dynamic burst (like applause, or tympani shots), stylus drag causes the deck to run at 33 1/3. If you set pitch at 33 1/3 on normal, fairly quiet passages, the deck will slow down a bit during dynamic passages.

You can actually see the deck slow down a bit during dynamic passages and 9 lbs of rotor and platter seem not enough to keep a flywheel effect sufficient to overcome it mechanically alone. You need electronic help...so tweek it ever-so-slightly fast is best.

Fact is, this deck is playing at such a high level now that one can very easily hear nuances like (slightly) slower speed or channels out of balance. It's quite interesting to get this kind of high level sound from this deck...as originally, I hadn't thought much of it, frankly.

The real kicker in getting it to sound very hi-quality was constrained layer damping dots on the tonearm...wow, never in my life have these little 'dot's made such a difference. The pitch instability, rather like flutter really, was nearly eliminated this way. It's not going to make you believe you have a $1000+ arm in there, but it now punches well above it's weight. As with other tonearms tried on, one dot only on the shaft - and the rest on the pillar area, counterweight, headshell, cartridge carrier and around on the tonearm mounting area. More than one dot on the tonearm pipe itself overdamps the performance.

Surprising is more than my reaction to it....it now plays with very high level of quality. I would rate it above the SL-1200...even tho mine has every tweek imaginable. Unlike the SL-1200, the DUAL lacks any 'etch' or notable grain and sounds natural in heft and presentation.

If this ticks off you SL-1200 lovers - I'm sorry - but, I don't get paid to endorse or slam deck in particular

Post your own overindulgent opinions counter to mine if you like...but I'd rather not hear your vitriol here or in PM's. Fact is, the DUAL 701 sounds better (now) than the SL-1200 with Origin Live armboard, $2800 Origin Live Illustrious tonearm, and KAB outboard motor supply and strobe disabler...despite doing every thing I could to rid it of it's dark presentation and 'etch' underlying the music.

The soundstage height/width/depth almost is as large as belt drive decks...but with the specificity and preciseness I find with the better DD decks. A surprise indeed this ugly duckling has been.

A Herbie's Way Excellent Mat has been laid on top of the DUAL rubber one and 4 brass toes bypass the stock feet and run headlong into a 3.5" thick maple board.

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #18 on:** 1 Jan 2009, 07:49 pm »

btw, here is the very nice upgraded walnut base that FixMyDUAL...which probably helps performance, too (I wouldn't know as mine came with the upgraded one).

It fits the 1200-series Idlers from DUAL, too.

lifewithmusic · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Jan 2009, 08:19 pm »

John:

My remarks above comparing the Dual 701 to the Technics SL-1800 Mk II were with both units stock, and the same cartridges in each (I think I was using a limited edition Empire, Shure and Audio Technica carts then, all MM). With both units stock, and stock wiring, the Technics easily won. Tweaking each may be very interesting.

The friend I sold my Dual to still has it. He told me a while ago it was, and had been, in storage for some time . . . perhaps I'll have to get it back from him and play around with it . . .