Large stereo bass line-array only system...

mcgsxr · « **Reply #20 on:** 26 Dec 2008, 12:56 pm »

On the topic of car bass, I agree with Eargasm, the combo of cabin gain and Epi with 600w on tap calls for a sealed 12 or 15 in my books. I am running isobaric 10's in my Accord, as I was not willing to give up much trunk space. Chops, I have an older Fosgate 12 inch (cast basket, 500w rms, 1000w peak) in my basement, dormant... check your PM. I used it in a 1.25 cubic foot sealed box in my BMW, run off a 500w Memphis Audio Class D amp - great tight car bass, and hit the lows. With the Epi, it would work very nicely.

Back on topic, I would go with 1 12 for a room of that size.

Chops · « **Reply #21 on:** 26 Dec 2008, 01:34 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr on 26 Dec 2008, 12:56 pm

On the topic of car bass, I agree with Eargasm, the combo of cabin gain and Epi with 600w on tap calls for a sealed 12 or 15 in my books. I am running isobaric 10's in my Accord, as I was not willing to give up much trunk space. Chops, I have an older Fosgate 12 inch (cast basket, 500w rms, 1000w peak) in my basement, dormant... check your PM. I used it in a 1.25 cubic foot sealed box in my BMW, run off a 500w Memphis Audio Class D amp - great tight car bass, and hit the lows. With the Epi, it would work very nicely.

Back on topic, I would go with 1 12 for a room of that size.

Mark, thanks for the tip. You too have a PM.

EARGASM · « **Reply #22 on:** 26 Dec 2008, 04:27 pm »

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mcgsxr · « **Reply #23 on:** 26 Dec 2008, 11:02 pm »

That GR sub would be great, but I think it is only available in 8 ohm?

He needs to get down to 2 ohms to best load that amp, and I doubt he has the room for 4 12's, unless we convince him to build a wall in his car!

EARGASM · « **Reply #24 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 01:55 am »

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planet10 · « **Reply #25 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 02:51 am »

Quote from: Danny on 25 Dec 2008, 04:52 pm

SW-12-04

Danny,

How high do these go with no XO in the way?

dave

Danny Richie · « **Reply #26 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 03:09 pm »

Quote

How high do these go with no XO in the way?

Smoothly to 500Hz then a little drop.

Chops · « **Reply #27 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:06 pm »

Alright, well thanks to Mark, I have the sub for the vehicle sorted.

As for the 2-ch system, things have changed drastically. I am not going to be building the Sachiko's as they are just way too much for my tiny room. They will never be able to perform as they should in this room and really require a much larger room, even larger than any of the rooms in my house! So with that, I am going to drop down from Dave's 8" Fostex FE206eN to a 6.5" Fostex instead, and most likely in some sort of bookshelf speaker design like the Fonken.

Now Danny, I know you keep saying that a single servo driver in a sealed enclosure will be just fine, but if I go with a smallish bookshelf design, I'm going to need to go with stereo bass again. So...

I was looking on Dave's Frugal Horn site again and was eye-balling the ShadowSD12 0v9 bass horn designed for the CSS SD12 drivers and was just wondering how well a bass horn like this would work with your servo subs. I'm just looking for something a little out of the norm. Of course, it would have to be retuned and tweaked for your driver(s). With the servo technology and completely tunable servo amp, do you think these bass horns could reach down to a usable 20Hz?

EARGASM · « **Reply #28 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:17 pm »

Removed by member.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:18 pm »

Quote

Now Danny, I know you keep saying that a single servo driver in a sealed enclosure will be just fine, but if I go with a smallish bookshelf design, I'm going to need to go with stereo bass again. So...

So long as the bookshelf speakers can hit a -3db in the 70 to 80hz range, then you can still get by with a single.

If you really are interested in a small monitor design then I do have a kit that was designed for small room applications and gives the cost no object mini-monitors a run for their money. Have a look at the Neo-2X kit. It is a sealed design and that might be best for that small room. Then add a single servo sub and enjoy the music.

Quote

I was looking on Dave's Frugal Horn site again and was eye-balling the ShadowSD12 0v9 bass horn designed for the CSS SD12 drivers and was just wondering how well a bass horn like this would work with your servo subs. I'm just looking for something a little out of the norm. Of course, it would have to be retuned and tweaked for your driver(s). With the servo technology and completely tunable servo amp, do you think these bass horns could reach down to a usable 20Hz?

Horn loading is for increasing SPL levels and if tuned right can increase the low end extension too.

This is just not necessary with the servo sub. Flat to 20Hz and a -3db down in the teens is about as good as anyone can ask for. A nice small sealed box is a plus as well. One woofer in a room that small and you'd never turn it up past half way.

If you really want to go nuts then do two of the SW-12-08's in a sand box powered with one of the servo amps.

It is easy to make "loud". Sound quality is a completely different story and the servo controlled subs beat anything else out there.

Chops · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:26 pm »

Quote from: EARGASM on 27 Dec 2008, 05:17 pm

Now come on Eric, I was just asking, that's all. It never hurts to ask. And I'm full of it... Questions that is.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:30 pm »

No worries Chops. Eric has now experienced the direct servo subs first hand and has seen the light. So he is now a full fledged believer.

Chops · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:39 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 27 Dec 2008, 05:18 pm

Quote
Now Danny, I know you keep saying that a single servo driver in a sealed enclosure will be just fine, but if I go with a smallish bookshelf design, I'm going to need to go with stereo bass again. So...

So long as the bookshelf speakers can hit a -3db in the 70 to 80hz range, then you can still get by with a single.

If you really are interested in a small monitor design then I do have a kit that was designed for small room applications and gives the cost no object mini-monitors a run for their money. Have a look at the Neo-2X kit. It is a sealed design and that might be best for that small room. Then add a single servo sub and enjoy the music.

Quote
I was looking on Dave's Frugal Horn site again and was eye-balling the ShadowSD12 0v9 bass horn designed for the CSS SD12 drivers and was just wondering how well a bass horn like this would work with your servo subs. I'm just looking for something a little out of the norm. Of course, it would have to be retuned and tweaked for your driver(s). With the servo technology and completely tunable servo amp, do you think these bass horns could reach down to a usable 20Hz?

Horn loading is for increasing SPL levels and if tuned right can increase the low end extension too.

This is just not necessary with the servo sub. Flat to 20Hz and a -3db down in the teens is about as good as anyone can ask for. A nice small sealed box is a plus as well. One woofer in a room that small and you'd never turn it up past half way.

If you really want to go nuts then do two of the SW-12-08's in a sand box powered with one of the servo amps.

It is easy to make "loud". Sound quality is a completely different story and the servo controlled subs beat anything else out there.

Nah, I want to stick with the Fostex drivers as I'm only using 8 watts or so now and will be upgrading to only 13 watts. The Neo-2X is darn nice, but the 85dB sensitivity it a deal breaker. The 94dB sensitivity of the 6.5" Fostex drivers is a good thing plus I'm really liking the whole single driver thing now. It's really impressive what can be achieved with so little.

As for the sub, I'll stick with the sealed design. However, don't be surprised if I decide to go with two of them eventually for stereo bass.

EARGASM · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:53 pm »

Removed by member.

Chops · « **Reply #34 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 05:57 pm »

So are you saying I should go with the GR sealed servos?!

LOL! Just kiddin'.

EARGASM · « **Reply #35 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 06:00 pm »

Removed by member.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #36 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 06:03 pm »

Quote

Nah, I want to stick with the Fostex drivers as I'm only using 8 watts or so now and will be upgrading to only 13 watts. The Neo-2X is darn nice, but the 85dB sensitivity it a deal breaker.

Understood. The Neo-2X needs at least 30 watts of power and 50 is preferred.

Quote

The 94dB sensitivity of the 6.5" Fostex drivers is a good thing plus I'm really liking the whole single driver thing now. It's really impressive what can be achieved with so little.

My biggest issue with the full range drivers is the baffle step loss. If you use a baffle step loss compensation circuit to get it back then you are down to 90db or so. You could use a wide front baffle but the surface reflection issues hots the imaging too hard. There always seems to be a sacrifice there somewhere.

I have a MTM with the M-130/16's and a deep back cup Neo-3 pdr in the works (if I can ever get those test boxes delivered) that is an 8 ohm speaker (easy on the single digit tube amps) and with sensitivity in the 90 to 91db range.

Those would work well for you too.

Chops · « **Reply #37 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 06:05 pm »

Quote from: EARGASM on 27 Dec 2008, 06:00 pm

Yeah, but horn load 'em!

Now I should be the one going...

hahaha

Honestly, the only reason I was thinking about the horn loading was not for more output, but thinking that the horn would require less excursion from the driver, reducing driver distortion that much more. Apparently, that is all moot anyway with the servo subs, especially in small sealed enclosures.

Chops · « **Reply #38 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 27 Dec 2008, 06:03 pm

My biggest issue with the full range drivers is the baffle step loss. If you use a baffle step loss compensation circuit to get it back then you are down to 90db or so. You could use a wide front baffle but the surface reflection issues hots the imaging too hard. There always seems to be a sacrifice there somewhere.

I have a MTM with the M-130/16's and a deep back cup Neo-3 pdr in the works (if I can ever get those test boxes delivered) that is an 8 ohm speaker (easy on the single digit tube amps) and with sensitivity in the 90 to 91db range.

Those would work well for you too.

It's funny you mention that about BSC. I have that on the little Fostex FE130E's I'm using now, and to be honest with you, I didn't notice much of a drop in output at all. I noticed the much needed drop in the midrange, but that's it really. I'm using a Madisound 1mH air-core inductor and a 3 ohm - 10 watt Eagle resistor, so theoretically these drivers should be somewhere around 86dB now, but they sure don't act or sound like it. I can't even bring the volume up 1/4 of the way on the KingRex Pre-Amp as it's too loud at that point and the little SI T-amp is in no way straining.

planet10 · « **Reply #39 on:** 27 Dec 2008, 06:20 pm »

Quote from: Chops on 27 Dec 2008, 05:06 pm

I was looking on Dave's Frugal Horn site again and was eye-balling the ShadowSD12 0v9 bass horn designed for the CSS SD12 drivers and was just wondering how well a bass horn like this would work with your servo subs.

Shadow is really a BVR not a horn.

dave