Not specific to Hagerman equpment but something fun for our board.

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tubesforever

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So I seem to have become a teflon champion when it comes to Hagerman Clarinets and Cornet(2) equipment.  I have to say it is pretty awesome to spend under a grand and go side by side with 5-10k dollar gear and come out superior. 

When we began discussing the early results of teflon caps our own Bob M posted he has been using these in his speaker crossovers.  They worked especially well in the tweeter positions.  He pulled them from the midrange bypass position. 

I have been up to my eyeballs in projects this Autumn.  A couple weeks ago I decided it was time to jump into my custom diy speakers and try some teflons as Bob had done.

This is not an easy undertaking in my DIY speakers.  I basically have to remove the drivers (which are soldered) pull the top assembly and then dive into the box to get these caps in place.  It is such an unpleasant project that I have put this off for at least 6 months time.

Well I got the job done after 4 hours of labor and a little trepidation.

Then I started playing some Christmas music from Sarah Mac Lachlin and Diana Krall.  I was really floored.  The clarity in the vocals and the midrange I heard from using the teflons in my Hagerman Clarinet and Cornet 2 are even more apparent now. 

I waited a couple of weeks to see if it was just a flavor of the month kind of observation, but after spinning more and more of my torture tests its way, I have to say these teflons are amazing for my tweeters. 



The driver compliments are a Foster Ribbon tweeter, an MBL 3" titanium mid tweeter, a 5.5 inch Scan Speak Revelator, and a 7 inch Scan Speak Revelator. 

BTW I am running the 3" MBL Quartz titanium mid tweeter from 2275hz to 9,000 hz with a second order crossover.  Then I pass off the highs to a Foster Ribbon tweeter also using a second order crossover.  I put the FT-3 0.10uf 600v teflons as bypasses on both of these two high frequency drivers.  I did not use the teflons in the midrange crossover due to Bob's experience in this arena. 

The teflons let these pieces do their work with less after-taste. 

Sibilance is highly reduced. 

That PHAT tone that Pat OMalley loves so much comes through with greater realism. 

The highs sound a lot less like white noise even on some of my marginal quality recordings.  In fact I like these teflons so much I wish I had not wasted 6 months time putting them in. 

I thought my speaker crossovers had fairly decent crossovers.  I spent about 400 dollars on the ribbon coils, resistors and film caps.  In spite of that investment, less than 20 dollars of teflon significantly improved the sound of my speakers. 

Thanks to Bob M for posting about his teflon experience.  Thanks to Jim Hagerman for building a line stage and phono section that are so exciting, vibrant, and dynamic.  If you are enjoying your teflon caps then why not spin a few into your speakers (hopefully a less troublesome an experience than my own.) 

Happy Holidays to the Hagerman board.  This is a fantastic group of DIY fanatics. 

TerryO

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I have a question about your speakers. Were you running bypass caps before you installed the Teflons? I've always (OK, usually) run some bypass caps on my crossovers, usually inexpensive polyprops and have had good results. The teflon bypass caps are probably better, but how much better (for this application) is always the question.

BTW, I really enjoyed your write-up on the Clarinets, very good :thumb:

Best Regards,
TerryO

tubesforever

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Thanks for the kind words. 

I was running a 1uf film caps as a bypass cap in my crossovers.  The teflons were an immediate and dramatic improvement and mostly in clarity and the reduction of sibilance and white noise artifacting. 

I know some people love PIO for bypass caps.  I am probably not going to try them because it is so difficult to exchange these.

Brinkman

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I did not use the teflons in the midrange crossover due to Bob's experience in this arena. 

The tweeters in my Klipsch Fortes are the most tame I've ever heard them. The smooth, dynamic detail of the internally-bypassed Multicap RTXs I'm using for them sounds excellent. However, as much as I love the tone of the Mundorf M-Cap Supremes I've been using in the midrange, I still wanted more presence.

One of the first things I did with the 0.10uF teflons I got from you was to bypass the Mundorfs. The tweeter/squawker crossover now sounds perfectly seamless. It's possible that having foil caps in both the highpass and bandpass is tonally unifying them. Either way, I'm now really satified with this Forte tweak so don't be hesitant to try it out.

An additional benefit of using the telfons in parallel/bypassing applications is that it reduces their ESR, which is multiples higher than your standard polypropylene cap. When I get a chance I will try to determine if the increased ESR is a result of the casing of the cap. If it turns out to be the source, I'm going to have a lot of caps to prepare...

Happy holidays.

BobM

Hey Tubes ... glad I could pass it on. Teflon's are definitely something special, but they don't necessarily work everywhere (as some would believe). There is not a "best everywhere" in anything audio, but what they do do, they do do very well  :scratch:

Now sit back with a beverage of your choice and enjoy them over the holidays.

Ho, ho, ho

Bob

bluesky

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Hi

I am interested to hear your impressions of those Foster ribbon tweeters.  I bought some awhile ago when they were on special here in Oz and put them aside planning to use them as supertweeters in a speaker project.

The basic idea being to use some coral Flat 5 series II drivers supplementing the very high and low frequency extremes with the ribbons and some vintage bass drivers, probably in open baffles.  The specs state that they should crossover at 5kHz so I'd be very interested in how you have done yours.

Cheers

Bluesky

alpa6

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I have been reading about guitar tube amps lately.I'm going to build my own.During my reading i  came across the guy who makes trainwreck amps.He's sort of amp building guru.His amps go for 20000 and up.He talks at length about teflon.In caps and wire.He has tested many different types of material looking for that one particular tone.Guitar amps after all are sound makeing machines.
He stays away from teflon.He says it leads to a bright harsh amp.I learned alot researching this guy and his amps.
I'm going to save my money on teflon's.
I like a warm sound.Even if it's not the most accurate.Lush and warm.
From what i have read simple old style paper in oil caps are better sounding.

tubesforever

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Bluesky,  I have my Foster Ribbons crossed over at 9khz utilizing a double order crossover just to protect the little stinkers.

There are other Ribbons out there, but the cost is high and the Fosters actually sound pretty balanced in my monitor configuration.

If I redo my cabinets in the future as a floor standing speaker, it might be nice to buy the 36 to 48 inch long versions that are available from Parts Express.  By the way the long riggons are what Bob Carver used in his "Amazing" speakers. 

Alpaha6,  using Teflon is up to you.  Luckily they are really cheap, so tossing them in and pulling them out will not cause a financial hardship.  Being a musician can bet a double edged sword.  I hear good systems that I could never own.  The music just doesn't sound real.  I prefer the sound to be like it would sound live in the recording venue. 

As for guitar amps I know exactly what the guy is saying.  Basically a Fender amp is going to have a full bodied, warm and curvacious sound.  If you throw teflons in a Fender amp you are going to have owners chasing you down for a refund.

Very few instrument amps are built to be as clean and clear as a better quality amplifier we would buy for home audio.  However you can modify many of these amps to work in our environment.  I respect the old Crown amps.  Hotrodded they would put out 125-250 watts of power and operated Class A for about 25 watts.    Now there are much better sounding amps around without hotrodding required.

My Bedini 150MKII is on the warm side of neutral.  This is good in my apartment because I am only 7 ft away.  A bright amp would not work out in my current life style.   I added BlackGate electrolytics and a Dynamicap bypassed with a teflon cap and the Bedini now sounds much quieter, more dynamic, and has very natural highs.  I like it better with the teflons.  It is still on the warm side even with the teflon caps.  That is because the amp was designed for triode operation. 

bluesky

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Hi Tubes

Thanks for this info, makes me glad I bought the Foster ribbons when I did, the local electronics house here still has them for sale, fairly cheaply too, around $35AUD, which is cheaper than anywehere else I've seen around.

Were there any issues with matching differing speaker sensitivities?  You certainly have a good number of drivers in our speakers!

Bluesky

BobM

I have been reading about guitar tube amps lately.I'm going to build my own.During my reading i  came across the guy who makes trainwreck amps.He's sort of amp building guru.His amps go for 20000 and up.He talks at length about teflon.In caps and wire.He has tested many different types of material looking for that one particular tone.Guitar amps after all are sound makeing machines.
He stays away from teflon.He says it leads to a bright harsh amp.I learned alot researching this guy and his amps.
I'm going to save my money on teflon's.
I like a warm sound.Even if it's not the most accurate.Lush and warm.
From what i have read simple old style paper in oil caps are better sounding.

Guitar amps are a very different beast from audiophile equipment. Basically in a guitar amp you want something that is very efficient and dynamic, distorts early and predictably, has good tone, and does not have a lot of upper frequency extension (that will hurt your ears). it's all about the midrange there.

Enjoy,
Bob

tubesforever

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Bluesky,

In a line array speaker, you simply need to be able to have a room and a listening position that allows the drivers to integrate.

In my system, I have similar issues to an electrostatic panel.  If I move 12 inches in any direction the sound stage and frequency range will shift.  At 7 ft from the drivers my head needs to be in a vice if I want pure magic.

If I could get back 15 ft I would not have to be this confined. 

I have to slightly pad down the MBQuartz 3 inch titanium mid dome tweeter.  It can easily overpower the other drivers. 

Even though the Foster is very efficient, crossed at 9k it simply provides harmonics.  I do not need to pad down this driver in my system because the teflons remove every trace of white noise in this driver. 

I did have to pad it down with some other preamps and amps.  System matching is everything.

When a bowed string bass plays in my system you hear the growl.  It is intoxicating.  When a triangle is struck all you hear is pure music, no white noise.

This is what High Fidelity means to me -- Have everything sound real and I am happy. 

bluesky

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Hmmm, lots to think about.

I even thought about the "infinite baffle" idea where I could vent humungous bass drivers into my entire garage (because my study has an adjoining wall with the garage).  It would be possible I guess but I wonder if I might be taking things a bit too far, then again ....why not?

I am also trying to get my head around comb effect and things like "imaginary numbers" and such like.  It is dangerous to read just enough technical stuff to make yourself totally confused by trying to learn more!  :o

Bluesky
 

tubesforever

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Hsu Research did some excellent bass speakers in SoniCore concrete form tubes.  That is the direction I might follow in the future. 

I am getting 18 hz now with traditional oak plywood enclosures, but the frequency response is as smooth as I would like to hear.  Either SoniCore tubes or a clever horn arrangement..... 

I am conflicted when it comes to speakers.  It makes it harder to pick one and move forward. 

bluesky

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Hi Tubes

Yes, I have looked at the Hsu website and thought it may be easiest to use one (or two) of his subwoofers which would make life a whole lot easier instead of agonising over which design or drivers to use as a subwoofer.  Other options I have researched include Martin King's H frame design, Mr Linkwitz's Thor and Lucas Fikasz' vintage driver open baffles or even the whole garage infinite baffle set up. 

All this is academic at the moment though as I really don't have the readies to buy any of this stuff,  and if I did I'd rather get a set of Cymbal PCB's as this project holds a lot of fascination for me.  I have some Aksa projects I have to build for a friend first but, one day, I'd love to see how these compare to the tubed amps of Jim's design. 

My personal electronics mentor, a retired electrician, advised me to have two systems when I could afford it, one to listen to and one to work on while fiddling away with parts and circuit ideas.  I have learnt to trust his advice and maybe down the track I may just try and do this, two totally different topologies from designers for whom I have great respect for their respective talents.  Perhaps if I can amass some cheap parts along the way the Cymbal project may become a possibility in the not too distant future and I would then seek advice from the great pool of knowledge we have on Audiocircle.

Cheers

Bluesky