[TheChairGuy]

So, I'm 46 and I worked in a radio station when I was 16-18....so, I remember RTR's and even took a tape splicing class (block, tape, etc), but it's now so long I forget what is important to know.

As a vinyl nut, I've long heard various decks that are referred to as 'close to the master tape' quality.  So, I'd now like to hear for myself what that master tape sounds like  and I'm in the market for a RTR machine.

What things should I be pursuing in seeking one? 

What is difference between 7" and 10" reeled ones?

There are smaller/squatter ones like Pioneer 701's on the market for less than $400 fully refurbished out there.....the price is attractive as is the squatter stance, etc.  Would this be a sound purchase?

I'm really interested in playback....no recording studio effects needed.

Thanks,

John

[Figo]

Pre-recorded RtR sounds fantastic.  Problem is, tapes are scarce and the good ones cost a fortune.  I've built up a small classical collection, but to get a classic rock album can cost $150+

I would recommend a serviced Revox/Studer machine for versatility and sound quality. B77, etc. Or the pro Technics.  I've had bad experiences with older decks and consumer machines.  Stick to the good stuff or don't bother, it can be a real nightmare to set-up otherwise.

Make sure your deck can play 7 1/2 ips as well as 3 1/4 because those are the pre-recorded tape speeds, except for recent ("The Tape Project") releases that are 15ips and cost a few hundred bucks each.

I'm not interested in recording anything so take my comments purely for playback of (factory) pre-recorded material.

YMMV

[TONEPUB]

You aren't going to get anywhere near master tape quality from
pre-recorded rtr tapes...

As Figo mentioned, some of the Classical tapes are good, but
hard to find and the two track ones are what you want.  Again
very expensive.

You can get master tape quality if you buy the limited selection
from the tape project, but they are currently going for about 450
a pop and you need an awesome machine to play em back on.

Better off getting a better turntable!

[TheChairGuy]

I would recommend a serviced Revox/Studer machine for versatility and sound quality. B77, etc. Or the pro Technics.  I've had bad experiences with older decks and consumer machines.  Stick to the good stuff or don't bother, it can be a real nightmare to set-up otherwise.

Make sure your deck can play 7 1/2 ips as well as 3 1/4 because those are the pre-recorded tape speeds, except for recent ("The Tape Project") releases that are 15ips and cost a few hundred bucks each.

I'm not interested in recording anything so take my comments purely for playback of (factory) pre-recorded material.

YMMV

Figo - thanks for the quickie response  

What is the difference between the 7" and 10" reels (amt of music recorded on each?)

I ask mostly because those that take both 7 and 10" reels tend to huge and the more squat dims of the 7" decks are less space intensive (like this):  http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-Reel-to-Reel-RT-707-Deck-4-heads-3-motors-MINT_W0QQitemZ360111475037QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item360111475037&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318)

I have a hutch where all my audio toys go and have a shelf that will fit the 7" reel units, but perhaps not the taller ones.

What 'nightmare' is there for set-up on some of these?

Thx again - John

[TONEPUB]

Think of it like setting up the VTA/azimuth on a tt.

The only problem with rtr tapes is that if the machine that
made the tape isn't identical to that on your machine, you
lose the magic.

[KenSeger]

In theory the only difference between 7" and 10.5" reel to reel machines is the length of tape.  In the real world the stress on the motors, bearing, brakes, etc. is more than twice much. Usually a 10.5" machine will be pro, semi-pro, or have delusions of grandeur.  If you are sticking to playback only and not buying from The Tape Project ($200/reel in lots of 6 or $329 individually), everything you'll find on E-bay is 7".  A serious 10.5" machine will either have automatic tape tension sensing or be manually switchable between small and large reels (less force on winding and braking).

As far as master quality sound, The Tape Project is as close as you can get.  The pre-recorded tapes from the 50's and 60's were (to my knowledge) all done via high speed duplication and while some are good, they are nowhere near in quality of a tape that is copied in real time (original speed).

Problems with used tape recorders are worn heads.  You can get the pinch rollers rebuilt by Terry's Rubber Rollers, and you can still purchase brand new alignment tapes.  Heads are another problem, there is one source for New Old Stock heads -  fellow that purchased the inventory from Nortronics when they abandoned tape, that or the odd item on E-bay.  There are sources of new heads but these are pricey.

Your best bet is to find a machine that has recently been rebuilt or tuned up.  Go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/reeltoreel/
and read the posts by Sam Palermo and others that were in the business at one time.  This group is THE source for RTR info.   Sam still works on Teacs and there are other people that specialize repairing various brands.

Since the pro machines, Ampex, Studer, Scully, Nagra, Otari, etc. were better built than the semi-pro machines, Crown, Ampex, Revox, Ferrograph, Magnacord, etc. which were in turn better built than the consumer units, Dokorder, Akai/Roberts, Braun, Telefunken, Sony, Teac, Wollensak, Phillips, Uher, Tandberg, etc. the better used ones will probably be a better value than the cheaper ones.  Please note that the difference between pro, semi-pro, and consumer all overlap a lot depending on the range of models - example Ampex and Telefunken made models that were high end studio quality, good semipro, good consumer, and low end consumer, so choose the model not the brand.  Also, a machine that has worn heads is going to have worn belts, brakes, controls, and bearing as well.  Please note that if you are just playing back tapes and not recording, a mid-quality consumer unit in good shape is probably everything you'll ever need.

Invest is a serious demagnitizer like the Hand-De-Mag so you don't slightly erase tapes each time you play them.  You'll also need to clean the heads, guides, capstan, and idler arms frequently, particularily if you run into older tapes that are suffering from Sticky Shred Syndrome.

Ken

[TONEPUB]

Actually if you buy a TEAC, you can still buy the heads right from TEAC and they are relatively
inexpensive....

[TheChairGuy]

Hmmm, not as simple as I would've hoped.....but, analog rarely seems to be 

Gonna' have to think long and hard about stepping into RTR - it's not something that you can just step lightly into it seems.

Thanks on all guys - keep any relevant input coming - it's really appreciated here.

John

[Wayner]

I have a ReVox A77 1/2 track, high speed deck that I got when I was 20. So that puts the machine at..................................... ....................................... ....................................... ..............wait, I don't have enough fingers, got to take socks off.................................... .............................35 years old. The "on" lamp is burned out but the end of tape lamp is good (it's optical) and it plays, rewinds and records very well. The heads are in great shape as I didn't use it as much as I though I would, although I used it ro record live music for a radio station a few times.

A half track can really record dynamics, but you can't flip the reels around and record the otherway like a 1/4 track. But then, 1/4 tracks are usually a little noisier. Some later models of RTR came out with Dolby B which helped with the hiss issue.

To be honest John, RTRs are a pain in the ass. You will have to find someplace to find tape, too. I still have a couple of Maxell UD35-90s in wrap, but I'm not sure where to source the tape. I did record some albums and I remember recording off the air from my favorite FM station when I heard a new song I liked, but that was about it. Pre-recorded RTRs, like Jeff said, aren't that great, I think they are actually like 5th generation from the master). Records are less (I think 3rd).

Anyway, they can be fun for awhile, I'd just rather record onto a CD-R and be done with it.

Wayner

[Wayner]

By the way, I have a SonyES cassette deck that has Dolby B, C and S and will sound everybit as dynamic as the ReVox and with Dolby S, be almost as quiet as CDs.

W

[KenSeger]

Tonepub,

That is good news that Teac still sells heads combined with the fact that Sam Palermo still works on Teacs on weekends at his house in Chicago.  Thanks for correcting me!

Wayner,
 Quantegy (formerly Ampex) stopped making tape in April 2007, but there are many dealers that still sell their last run.
 RMGI of Holland (bought out EMTEC of Germany) still makes tape and is available from various dealers in the US.
ATR of USA started making tape a few years ago and is available from various dealers like US Recording Media who also sells RMGI.
The newst generation of tape formulations have as much as 9 db better s/n ratio of the old tapes of the 70's.

John,
  Please note that while you can play 1/2 track tapes on a 1/4 track machine, you can't play 1/4 track tapes on a 1/2 track machine if both 'sides' are recorded on.

Ken

P.S. Typically there are between 1,000 and 2,000 professionally prerecorded reel to reel tapes on E-bay on any given day.  Not as many as 12" LPs, but if if you wait long enough you'll find just about anything.

[bacobits1]

How are these prerecorded tapes preserved from deterioration ? That is, shedding, squeal, tape chatter etc. when played. I had at least 5 RtR decks, the last one was a TEAC X1000RB and had to get rid of it because all my 10" reels went to hell. I replaced most of 15 10" Reels of music approx 5 albums per reel @7.50 speed with vinyl. That was back in '89. The machines were cool and really fun to run but not worth the trouble now.

Den

[richidoo]

Ampex changed the adhesive formula in the late 70s. Those tapes need to be baked to reactivate the adhesive before transcription archiving. If not baked the FeO will come off the mylar and gum up the player. A dedicated oven is needed, the tapes stink when heated. Older tapes can last a very long time if well cared for.

http://www.tangible-technology.com/tape/baking1.html