[fatgh0st]

First, let me just say hello and an early thank you to anyone who takes the time to respond. I have been a long time reader of this forum but this is my first post. I'll apologize for the length of this post up front, but I figure it's better to get as much detail in as possible.

Anyway, so at the beginning of this year, I finally got the thumbs-up to do a front-projection and dedicated home-theater room in my basement. As you'll see in the pictures, I designed the room completely without acoustics in mind, and as a result, I'm now going back to the table again for the next step; making it sound better.

Currently, the sound seems too bright to me. Additionally, I get OK bass when I use my subwoofer (Axiom EP500), but I don't get good bass at all from my front mains which have a reputation for putting out very good bass (Axiom M80 v2).

My goal here is not to worry about soundproofing as much as sound-deadening to present the most accurate tonal response and best possible soundstage/imaging. I'm working with a fairly narrow room so I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get that soundstage to spread beyond those side walls (if possible)

The room itself is roughly 11x20, but the back wall opens up to the rest of the basement (see pics). The foundation is concrete and the theater room has a low-profile carpet (not plush, maybe 1/4" thick I'm guessing). The rest of this half of the basement is just tiled lenoleum directly over the concrete.

The walls are standard drywall with aluminum studs and as far as I know, non-insulated (the basement was finished before I bought the house)

The couches in the theater section are microfiber and fairly fluffy. There is absolutely nothing soft in the entire back half of the basement and nothing on the walls in the back half either.

The ceiling is a bit strange. It is a drywall ceiling, but because there is a beam running the length of the house, they drywalled around the beam, creating an uneven ceiling surface in this room. As you can see in the picture, there is a drop of 6" about 65% of the way from the left side wall. The height of the ceiling is 7' 4" in the high part and about 6' 10" in the lower part.

There is also an odd cutout on the right side-wall of the theater where it too, drops in about 6" to go around a beam (this is also visible in the picture).

The Media-Shelves (Book cases) along the right wall are going away which is going to fully expose this wall.

Despite the big screen, I listen to about 95% music (Stereo) and 5% movies so my main goal here is to improve the stereo music soundstage/imaging and the best possible mid-range and bass.

Also, I only sit about 7' away from the front speakers when I listen so I am definitely in a nearfield listening configuration.

So this brings me to my set of questions:

1. I'm willing to scrap the framed movie posters hanging on the left side wall to replace with panels if the general opinion is that it will make a big difference. Question is, would I benefit from panels on these side walls even with those big couches there?

2. Given my odd ceiling, what would be the best way to reduce reflections up there? Is the uneven surface potentially causing issues or excessive reflections? Does the fact that it's a fairly low ceiling make me even more susceptible to bad reflections?

3. Would I benefit by putting thick curtains up that go across the entire front of the room (in front of the screen when not watching movies and just listening to music)? Is that screen causing any issues?

4. I also considered putting a thick curtain across the back of the room (at the back of the couch) to semi-isolate the theater room from the rest of the basement. Would having that curtain there work any wonders given the fact that there is a very reflective back half of the basement? Or does the fact that I'm sitting so close to the speakers in the front nullify what's going on 12 feet behind me?

5. Given that my current carpet is a low-profile (1/4") on top of cement, would there be any noticeable benefit to upgrading it to a thicker, more plush carpet? Or, would placing a large 8x10 area rug up in the front area where I sit help at all? Or is the low-profile carpet on the floor doing about as much as a carpet is going to do?

6. My A/V equipment shelves are right up front near the speakers (about 4-5 feet away). Is having them there affecting the sound in anyway? Causing any reflections or "livening" the sound at all?

And finally, any general recommendations and advice would be GREATLY appreciated. If you see somthing in the pictures that sparks an idea, by all means...throw it out there. I want to make this sound amazingly accurate and I know that at this point, the acoustics are my biggest obstacle.

Here are the pictures of my room, as well as a Visio drawing of the layout with dimensions.


Visio Diagram of the relevant half of my basement:


From the back of the theater, looking forward to the screen WITHOUT my listening chair in place:



From the back of the theater, looking forward to the screen WITH my listening chair in place:



From the front of the theater (screen to my back) looking toward the back of the basement:



From Behind the back couch, looking to the left of the theater (the other leg of the 'L' that forms this half of the basement)




Thanks again in advance. You guys all seem to really know your stuff and your advice is greatly appreciated.

-Ben

[Ethan Winer]

Hi Ben,

would I benefit from panels on these side walls even with those big couches there?

Yes, and you need to move the shelves on the right too. I assume the main seat is the one in the back? That's too far back for good sound. The "best" seat in the house should form an equal triangle with the main left and right speakers. More here:

How to set up a room

2. Given my odd ceiling, what would be the best way to reduce reflections up there?

A stepped ceiling is fine. Just treat the reflection points (area, really) as usual.

Does the fact that it's a fairly low ceiling make me even more susceptible to bad reflections?

Only because the reflecting surface is close by. But even with a 12 foot ceiling you'd need absorption there.

3. Would I benefit by putting thick curtains up that go across the entire front of the room (in front of the screen when not watching movies and just listening to music)?

Probably not, because your speakers don't face that way.

4. I also considered putting a thick curtain across the back of the room

A curtain won't do much unless it's very thick and heavy.

would there be any noticeable benefit to upgrading it to a thicker, more plush carpet?

Probably not.

6. My A/V equipment shelves are right up front near the speakers (about 4-5 feet away). Is having them there affecting the sound in anyway? Causing any reflections or "livening" the sound at all?

From the photo it looks like the gear is in the reflection area, and so should be moved.

any general recommendations and advice would be GREATLY appreciated.

All the usually applies - as much corner bass trapping as possible, plus absorption at the reflection points. All in all that looks like a very nice room. The long length is a big plus. If you pull the prime seating forward it will be even better.

--Ethan

[fatgh0st]

Thanks Ethan! My seating position for music listening is actually from my listening chair (shown in the second picture) which does form a perfect triangle for the FL and FR.

Just based on what you've seen/read from my post, does it appear that this room would greatly benefit from treatment? Or would it only be a marginal improvement given my nearfield listening position. I'm sorry if I seem naive, but I'm fairly new to the whole acoustics aspect of all this.

Thanks!

-Ben

[youngho]

It sounds like you would like improved localization, which generally comes at the expense of spaciousness, at least for stereo listening.

1. Probably not for the listening chair, yes for the couch.
2. Broadband absorption would be helpful for reducing reflections. The lower ceiling makes for higher frequency vertical modes compared to a higher ceiling. Assuming that your ears are 37” off the ground, it puts them closer to the node for the first-order height mode(s) at around 80 Hz, so you might perceive relatively weak bass in this region. I don’t think that you were asking about modal problems, though.
3. Probably not. You could always pull them forward slightly.
4. The curtain is probably not going to have a significant effect at the listening chair but would be somewhat helpful when sitting on the couch. The curtain would have to be thick velour or velvet, hung in folds.
5. Upgrading the carpet would be helpful. Consider thick pile with a perforated backing, also a thick felt underlay (thicker is better) for maximal absorption here. http://www.carpet-rug.com/technical_bulletins/0002_Acoustical_Characteristics.pdf
6. It would have some minor effects in terms of diffraction at the listening chair, more when sitting on the couch.

[Ethan Winer]

My seating position for music listening is actually from my listening chair (shown in the second picture) which does form a perfect triangle for the FL and FR.

Heh, I completely missed that.

But you and other people sit on the couches when watching movies, yes?

does it appear that this room would greatly benefit from treatment?

Of course!

If you want to understand how much bass traps and other treatment would improve matters, measure your room with software such as ETF or Room EQ Wizard. This will show you exactly what you have now. If there's no easy way to connect a computer to your system, you can download a set of low frequency test tones from my company's web site:

Test Tone CD

--Ethan

[fatgh0st]

Ethan - Thanks! I'll give that a try and see if I can figure it all out. I have a Radio Shack SPL meter so I'll browse around and figure out how to get that working with the software.

On a side note, I actually got rid of the bookshelves and moved the A/V equipment rack out of the way last night and it made a massive change in the sound. It still needs help, but it has changed the sound signature entirely (in a good way). I now think it's pretty obvious that the shelves and the rack were both either reflecting or diffusing my sound in an undesireable way.

Now that the walls are cleared up, I'm going to order up some panels for the first reflections (walls and ceiling) but I don't know if I should opt for 2" or 4" thickness. Any suggestions based on my room size?

If I put tri-traps in the corner of the room, what exactly does that do? I mean, I know that it absorbs the low frequencies that gather in the corner, but what impact does it have on the sound that I perceive at my listening position? Since I currently hear less than a desireable amount of bass in my listening position, will this help redirect it or does it just tighten everything up and reduce boominess in other areas of the room?



Youngho - I do have weak bass in my listening position. You mentioned that my lower ceiling height puts me in a bad spot. What would you suggest I do to help out here? Would the panels that I'm planning for first reflections help? Or is there somethign else I can do to alleviate this problem.


Thanks again guys, you've all been very helpful.

-Ben

[Vinyl-Addict]

And finally, any general recommendations and advice would be GREATLY appreciated. If you see somthing in the pictures that sparks an idea, by all means...throw it out there. I want to make this sound amazingly accurate and I know that at this point, the acoustics are my biggest obstacle.

-Ben

The room looks very cosy.
I would recommend pulling your main speakers out from the wall more. They appear to be very close to the room boundary behind them.
For 2 channel listening you could pull them out to optimize soundstage and toe them in more to see if that improves the soundstage. You would obviously have to play with positioning to satisfy your criteria for "good sound" but pulling the speakers out and giving them more room to breathe will usually always result in better overall performance.

[doug s.]

i agree w/winyl-addict that the speakers are too close to the back wall.  if you want to optimize the set-up for audio, i would lose the couch in the back, and slide everything down to take its place - the couches on the side walls, the main listening chair, and the speakers.  (don't you need some place to sit in that corner of the room, opposite the bar?    )

also, since your room is so narrow, getting sound absorption at the first reflection points is even more important than normal.  i would definitely do that, (including the ceiling); and you may also wanna consider losing a couple the framed art hangings, or at least moving the one(s) that is/are at the first reflection points to the other side of the room...

doug s.

[satfrat]

And finally, any general recommendations and advice would be GREATLY appreciated. If you see somthing in the pictures that sparks an idea, by all means...throw it out there. I want to make this sound amazingly accurate and I know that at this point, the acoustics are my biggest obstacle.

-Ben

The room looks very cosy.
I would recommend pulling your main speakers out from the wall more. They appear to be very close to the room boundary behind them.
For 2 channel listening you could pull them out to optimize soundstage and toe them in more to see if that improves the soundstage. You would obviously have to play with positioning to satisfy your criteria for "good sound" but pulling the speakers out and giving them more room to breathe will usually always result in better overall performance.

I fully agree with Vinyl-Addict, pull them loudspeakers away from that front wall so the sound stage has room to develop. As an example, my room is also 11' wide and I have my Odyssey Lorelei's sitting 52" from the front wall(measuring from the speaker's front) and 19" from the side walls so that gives me close to a 7' spread between the loudspeakers so they have the room to create a deep sound stage with a wide center image. In my case, that's the strong point of my Lorelei's. If you do bring them loudspeakers out into the room, adjust your listening chair accordingly and I wouldn't worry too much about the couches being on either side of you either, that's natural echo obsorption. If you get a good soundstage in front of you, the couches shouldn't be an issue.

To the right, I'm seeing either a cd rack or a book case. either way, that's good natural diffusion. It's too bad your gear is on the other side as i'd recommend the same or a bookcase for that side also. Dual Bass Traps might work nice for each front wall corner,,, either that or match wall diffusion panels on either side of that screen. Even if you simply place some silk trees in each corner, don't just leave all them edges(wall/ceiling corners) bare.

Are those lamps up front and are they sitting on top of your speakers? If so, I'd lose them. Mount them on the wall or something. There's no reason why that room shouldn't sound killer IMHO. You might consider adding a 2nd subwoofer up front also,placed right between the center channel and the right loudspeaker so it'll be offset with the left rear sub. if you can play your loudspeakers "small", the the 2 subs will give you all the bass you desire and your amp will have more power for the midrange/tweeter. that's what I do btw.

Cheers,
Robin

[doug s.]

robin, ben said he already moved the rack & bookshelf, for a substantial improvement.  imo, shelves may be a good thing for diffusion, but in a room that narrow, proper absorption panels would be better.  and, that shelf, w/cd's on it, is too hard a surface, imo - almost like having the wall another foot closer to the speaker.  and, if ben pulls his speakers out another 3'-4', and moves the listening chair back 4'-5', (i'd wanna get a foot or two further from the speakers, if possible), then i am afraid the couches would be in the way of the main wavefront of the speakers.  but, only ben will know for sure, if/when he tries it.   

doug s.

[bpape]

Sorry to be late to the party.....

This is what I'd do.

Move the CD's to the rear of the room along one side. 
Move the equipment to the front of the room. 
Move a couple of the framed posters more to the rear of the room.
Address the 2 front corners with broadband bass absorption
At least 2 reflection panels on each side wall

Just my 2 cents.

Bryan

[fatgh0st]

Well, I took a little of each poster's advice and just finished making my acoustic adjustments last night. All I can say is WOW!

first, I scrapped the equipment rack all together. I put my digital source, stereo preamp and amp up in the front (under the center channel). The rest of the gear got put back in another room with wiring through the walls/ceiling and added an RF remote to control them.

I moved the sub from the back of the room to the front half, along the wall next to my listening chair.

I scrapped the bookshelf, moved it to another section of the basement.

I removed all the framed movie posters from the side wall.

I put up a total of 16 2'x2' ATS Acoustics 2" Panels. 4 of them in a pattern forming a large diamond (alternating colors...looks sharp) at the first reflection point on each side wall, 2 of them on the ceiling at the first reflection points, and then 3 on each side wall running down the length of the room.

I scrapped my old listening chair and got a Salamander Matteo HT chair (comfy!)

The result: a much more controlled room. No more echo...even when I talk in that room now, it's much more noticeably "dead"

With the right tracks, the soundstage now extends beyond the side walls and beyond the back wall, which is exactly what I wanted.

The only remaining item would possibly be some bass traps in the back corner but I might have to get creative because I have a baseboard heater in the one corner that is going to make the fitting tough.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you all for your help and insight that ultimately led me to a much happier listener! Like so many have come on here before and said, I can't believe it took me this long to realize that a $500 investment in room treatments and a 8-10 hours of studying and posting could rival improvements of thousands of dollars worth of gear upgrades!

Oh, and I treated myself to a nice new pair of Focal/JM Labs Electra 1027be speakers to replace those Axioms . With the Axioms, the treatments made a huge improvement. throwing in the Focals moved it just that much closer to nirvana

I'll post some pictures back up for the history books (before/after) once I complete all the wiring and finalize the cleanup.

Thanks again everyone!

-Ben

[MaxCast]

Congrats, Ben.  I remember when I first added room treatments.  It was better than buying a new system.  Of course that didn't stop me, but it made the new system sound better too.