[sts9fan]

What do you all think?  I would say if you want one of his Pass clones I would buy it now.  It really is a shady deal profiting from someone else's design.  Especially someone like Nelson.  I think it is safe to say he is one of the most generous people in DIY electronics and has given so much of his IP up for people to have fun with.  I mean if you want an ALEPH fine build it.  He is cool with that.  The rules are so lax its stupid to have to break them.  Then Nelson will withdraw his service manua's and it will suck for us that are using the info as intended.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1657544#post1657544

[rydenfan]

Are you for it or against it? I cannot tell... You say it is shady but you are also telling people to buy now if they are interested  Just trying to figure it out.

[sts9fan]

I am wishy washy like that.

[face]

I'm considering one of his ALEPH builds.

[zybar]

What do you all think?  I would say if you want one of his Pass clones I would buy it now.  It really is a shady deal profiting from someone else's design.  Especially someone like Nelson.  I think it is safe to say he is one of the most generous people in DIY electronics and has given so much of his IP up for people to have fun with.  I mean if you want an ALEPH fine build it.  He is cool with that.  The rules are so lax its stupid to have to break them.  Then Nelson will withdraw his service manua's and it will suck for us that are using the info as intended.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1657544#post1657544

Before using words like "shady" you should be sure of your facts and not jump to conclusions.

I saw your posting on DIY and saw some inaccuracies there.

George

[sts9fan]

Ok fair enough I don't have much info.  I am not sure why someone would build so many for cost.  That said Nelson's reply should be enough and final.

[anubisgrau]

don't think he's doing anything shady

i have one of his F3s

i can't afford a brand new F3

i can't do it myself - 2 left hands here

i had to find someone who would do it for me

tim did it for a very reasonable money - exactly for what you see his amps on sale around

i was very happy with it

plus tim doesn't really make some money on it - think 100$ or so per amp

whoever is concerned with it should think that there's 2 sides to the story

as i said, if tim wouldn't build it for me, i would never know how great is nelson's design

tim won't get rich on it

nelson won't get poor on it

god bless them both

[TomS]

don't think he's doing anything shady

i have one of his F3s

i can't afford a brand new F3

i can't do it myself - 2 left hands here

i had to find someone who would do it for me

tim did it for a very reasonable money - exactly for what you see his amps on sale around

i was very happy with it

plus tim doesn't really make some money on it - think 100$ or so per amp

whoever is concerned with it should think that there's 2 sides to the story

as i said, if tim wouldn't build it for me, i would never know how great is nelson's design

tim won't get rich on it

nelson won't get poor on it

god bless them both

Very well said...  I built my own F4 clones, but the Aleph-X/XA would be way over my head so Tim provides some possibilities for that situation too.  Unfortunately, I can't afford the XA.5 I really want anyway.

[sts9fan]

I guess there are many ways too look a it.  I am not sure lack of technical skills is justification though.
 
Regardless George I would love to compare my Zv9 to youir AlephJ.  Both run on Jfets. 

Also Tom are you the guy who lives somewhat near Syracuse Indiana?  I will be out there before Christmas and would love to hear your system.

Kris   

[TomS]

I guess there are many ways too look a it.  I am not sure lack of technical skills is justification though.
 
Regardless George I would love to compare my Zv9 to youir AlephJ.  Both run on Jfets. 

Also Tom are you the guy who lives somewhat near Syracuse Indiana?  I will be out there before Christmas and would love to hear your system.

Kris   

Yep, I'm in Ft. Wayne.

[Wind Chaser]

Here's another argument...  Nelson builds the authentic real thing.  If you can afford a Rolex, Ferrari etc, would you settle for an imitation?  Tim's amps, though functional are not exactly status symbols, or visual works of art.  Those who want and can afford Pass amp wont settle for a Rawson.

Also, it's not as if Tim can build every Pass design.  Nelson Pass intended and made a substantial amount of his intellectual property available to everyone and anyone.  That contribution is commendable and so uncharacteristic of our greedy society.  What other high end manufacturer can you think of that is so unselfish and willing to share as he has and continues to do?

Nelson Pass is more than a brilliant designer; he is a very rare and classy example of what human beings are capable of.

[sts9fan]

Exactly.  Plus his generosity is monetary also.   Read about the thousands of dollars worth of stuff he has given away at the two Burning Amp fests.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110419&perpage=25&highlight=&pagenumber=1

First off - it was utterly overwhelming. Nelson and Colin filled the bed of their Ford F250 with stuff. The pile was jammed in and extended almost a foot above the sides of the bed in places. Nelson even had to put the truck into "tow mode" to negotiate one of the hills in the city because there was so much stuff in the back. There were thousands of transistors. I recall one sealed Digikey bag containing maybe ten tubes of 50 each IRF9610's, a basketball sized bag of MJ15022's and another of MJ15003's. Nelson was wandering about with tubes of Lovoltech JFET's saying to people "You want some?" and if they said yes he would pour about a dozen into their open hand. There were literally hundreds of speaker drivers, including some very serious ones such as 3 or 4 pairs of Fostex FE208's that were raffled off. Many of the drivers were in unopened PartsExpress cartons. There were dozens of 1KVA and 2KVA toroids, and a whole bunch of 30V-0-30V toroids suitable for pre-amps and crossovers. There were at least a dozen of what appeared to be X150 heatsinks, some with transistors still attached. There were hundreds of old Threshold knobs that Colin was stuffing by handfuls into peoples swag bags as he put it "like Halloween candy". At 7 pm there was still stuff left in spite of almost 100 DIY'ers staggering off with arm loads all day long. I recall four to six Aleph 1.2 transformers still lying there unclaimed as I walked out the door.

[DavidS]

Know this is a little off topic but would love to know how these amps sound.  I have read the 6 moon review of the F5 which was pretty much a rave but little else.  Are the Rawson knock offs exact copies or just in the ballpark?  Tons of variations discussed in the long and hard to follow thread over at diyaudio.  Love the idea of building an amp but being realistic it also scares the bejsus out of me - should have paid more attention in highschool shop class and alas that ship is long sailed.  Why and who would consider this latest firstwatter? 

[zybar]

Know this is a little off topic but would love to know how these amps sound.  I have read the 6 moon review of the F5 which was pretty much a rave but little else.  Are the Rawson knock offs exact copies or just in the ballpark?  Tons of variations discussed in the long and hard to follow thread over at diyaudio.  Love the idea of building an amp but being realistic it also scares the bejsus out of me - should have paid more attention in highschool shop class and alas that ship is long sailed.  Why and who would consider this latest firstwatter? 

My two clone amps aren't clones of the FirstWatt series so I can't directly compare them that way.

I will say that both amps (Aleph J clone and X-AJ clone - think of something very close to XA series of amps) are both very easy to listen and really draw me into the music.  I have no problems putting either one into the system as a replacement for some very expensive and/or highly upgraded tube mono blocks and not feeling like the system to a big step backwards.

I have the X-AJ out on loan to a fellow AC member, he certainly has my blessing to post his thoughts on the amp in his system.

George

[kck]

I have the mini-J and I can echo what George said almost down to the last word.

[lt5dude]

I've owned several Pass Labs or First Watt amps, plus several clones. I've used them with various preamps and speakers, so I can't compare all of them directly, but these are my impressions.

My main system uses an Altmann Attraction DAC or Luxman T117 tuner as a source, a Pass Labs Aleph P preamp, Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Super Tower speakers (8 ohm 92db), plus a pair of REL Strata III subs.

My secondary system uses a Modwright "Absolute Truth" tube modded Pioneer DV-45Ai (I think that's the Pioneer model #) as a source, a Transcendent Sound Grounded Grid preamp, and Hornshoppe Horns speakers.



In the primary system, I've used the following amps:

Pass Labs Aleph 30 - Great amp that was in my system for years before being bested by the F3.

First Watt F3 - So far, the best amp I've heard in my main system. Incredible soundstage and vocals.

First Watt F4 - Better than the Aleph 30, and in some ways (detail and bass) perhaps slightly better than the F3. The F3's sound stage and overall sound is superior, though. The F4's soundstage seems very vertically compressed when compared to the F3. However, I'm keeping this amp for now to see if I can find a preamp that works better with it, since this amp's sound is so dependant on its preamp.

In the secondary system, I've used:

First Watt F1 - The best amp for these speakers (just ask Ed!) but I couldn't justify having so much money tied up in the secondary system, so I sold it to raise funds for the F4.

Rawson clone F2 - Currently, my favorite in the secondary system.  Has some hum, but sounds at least as good as the clone F3 in this system and was quite a bit cheaper.

Rawson clone F3 - Sounded fine in this system, but not significantly better than the clone F2.  I'm anxious to try this amp head-to-head against the "genuine article" First Watt F3 in the main system, but have not had the time yet.

I also have a Rawson clone F5 that I've used in a tertiary system with the Modwright Pioneer player (or a Sansui TU 717 tuner), an Audio Experience Symphonies preamp, and a pair of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook monitors (4 ohm 92db).  So far, I've been quite inpressed with the F5 clone and am anxious to give it a try in my main system. The sound seems "punchier" than the F3, but I can't say for sure yet since they are in different systems.


Overall, I'm a huge fan of these amps, and I believe that if you don't need a ton of power and can handle the heat they put out, they are hard to beat- especially for the money.

I wish I could DIY for myself, but I'm clueless.  I think Tim's amps give us klutzes a chance to try these designs. I am most appreciative to Nelson Pass for making this possible, and have supported his companies with my $$ too.

I hope this is helpful.

[DavidS]

thanks for writing about your experience - lots of these amps through your system.  Would love to hear more about the F5 and how it compares to other first watts and then the rawson vs. NelsonP kitchen table built amps.

David

[Jon L]

I also have a Rawson clone F5 that I've used in a tertiary system with the Modwright Pioneer player (or a Sansui TU 717 tuner), an Audio Experience Symphonies preamp, and a pair of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook monitors (4 ohm 92db).  So far, I've been quite inpressed with the F5 clone and am anxious to give it a try in my main system. The sound seems "punchier" than the F3, but I can't say for sure yet since they are in different systems.

Please do compare Pass F3, clone F3, and clone F5 in one system and report back. 
If you can, do try to include a good tube amp, preferably single-ended variety in the mix

[Telstar]

Please do compare Pass F3, clone F3, and clone F5 in one system and report back. 
If you can, do try to include a good tube amp, preferably single-ended variety in the mix

I second this. Waiting to read

[Gaara]

I don't understand the animosity on the diyaudio thread.  Pass gives out the design and a diy uses it...surprise surprise.  It isn't like he is opening a business selling the amps, he clearly makes little money on them to cover his time, and sells few of them.  Then they complain that he uses the Aleph name in his ads, what is he supposed to call them?  I would think it would be much worse if he concealed where the design came from, and claimed it as his own. 

Also, why not the same hostility towards anyone who makes a gainclone?  That is a worse transgression then this, as, to my knowledge, 47 labs never gave those designs out.  Why is no one complaining about Peter Daniels or the like stealing that design?

I have dealt with Tim plenty of times and he has always been a stand up guy.  People such as myself go to him because they want to build a certain amp but don't have the ability or know how.  For the record I have had him build me a 3886 gainclone, bpa200 gainclone, and 200asc icepower amp.