[satfrat]

I like being able to swap cables but it does feed the nervosa and wallet drain.  What do you think?

Aside from an extremely well respected manufacturer telling me not to waste my time or money on PCs, I scored a pair of NOS Telefunken ECC801S valves for less than I could have experimented with cords. I am more than certain that the sonic benefit, and life span, they are providing is more significant than any possible PC swap.

JMHO,
Jerry

How can you be certain about something you've never tried Jerry?

[JerryM]

Hey Robin!   

Who said I've never tried them? It's cool; I know who said that. That guy's been screwing with me since the third grade. I hate that guy! 

I did have a system prior to my new set up...  Trust me, the Tele's make a far bigger difference than any PC swap I've ever personally heard. YMMV.

Have fun,
Jerry

[andyr]

IMO it sounds better without the IEC connection. I just do not know why.

I read that a reputable amplifier designer/mfr wrote that the zinc coating on the pins of the IEC sockets/plugs makes the result sound horrible - ie. bare copper would be great (if it didn't tarnish) so silver-plated copper is the next best thing ... and this sounds much better than zinc-plated.

Acme Audio sell silver-plated IEC chassis-sockets ... I don't know who makes silver-plated cable plugs.

So by hard-wiring, you removed the sound of this zinc plating; secondly, removing a set of mechanical contacts would make it sound better, too - just like hardwiring one end of an IC does.

Regards,

Andy

[Brown]

Thanks scotty and andyr for offering some sort of info. let me state that IMO through numerous experiments powercords make a difference.  After market cords as well as homemade cords have always changed the sound. Some for the better some for the worse.
   Now back to the subject of this thread. I have found that a soldered connection was better only if the connectors were not tight. With a loose connection the sound was clearly better when soldered. When I found a great IEC [ male and female] made by O'heil with a grip like a Pit bull the difference was barely noticeable.
   what was the difference you ask, A clearer picture into the music. Deeper soundstage with better separation of instruments. its almost a coin toss when using a quality IEC. The soldered connection may be the overall winner but again by a very small margin if at all.
   The advantage of the IEC IMO is only to try different cords in a convenient manner. For the record my preamp is now hardwired with homemade 10 Ga stranded in a concentric wind silverplated copper with Teflon dielectric twisted every 3 inches, Amps hardwired with ESPs and CDP has an IEC connection O'Heil of course with Omega micro active cord.
  So my opinion. With a high quality connector it is very very close to a soldered connection. If i had my choice all cords would be hardwired.

[Wayner]

Hey Occam,

I got a brand new Onkyo T4555 tuner that has a 2 prong, polorized plug with a metal chassis and aluminum front faceplate that's UL listed. I also have several new Sony products, brand new UL listed with two prong polorized plugs. What gives here?

I think you owe Frank Van Alstine an appology for spouting off your junk as you obviously don't know what is required for approvals.

Wayner 

[satfrat]

Hey Robin!   

Who said I've never tried them? It's cool; I know who said that. That guy's been screwing with me since the third grade. I hate that guy! 

I did have a system prior to my new set up...  Trust me, the Tele's make a far bigger difference than any PC swap I've ever personally heard. YMMV.

Have fun,
Jerry

OK Jerry,,,, I trust ya.

[Philistine]

Hey Occum,

I got a brand new Onkyo T4555 tuner that has a 2 prong, polorized plug with a metal chassis and aluminum front faceplate that's UL listed. I also have several new Sony products, brand new UL listed with two prong polorized plugs. What gives here?

I think you owe Frank Van Alstine an appology for spouting off your junk as you obviously don't know what is required for approvals.

Wayner 

Your Onkyo tuner and Sony products are Class 11 rated, which doesn't nullify Occam's observation.

[fsimms]

I started a post on "What makes a good preamp".  I did this due to Frank Van Alstine's post.   I hope Frank does give his input.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61605.0

Bob

[satfrat]

I started a post on "What makes a good preamp".  I did this due to Frank Van Alstine's post.   I hope Frank does give his input.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61605.0

Bob

 And what's that got to do with Captive Cords vs Swappable IEC Inlets??? You could have PM'd Frank, ya'know.(term taken from the Miller Lite commercial) 

[fsimms]

And what's that got to do with Captive Cords vs Swappable IEC Inlets??? You could have PM'd Frank, ya'know

Frank Van Alstine made the post in this thread.  I was just taking the discussion off of this tread 

Bob

[satfrat]

And what's that got to do with Captive Cords vs Swappable IEC Inlets??? You could have PM'd Frank, ya'know

Frank Van Alstine made the post in this thread.  I was just taking the discussion off of this tread 

Bob

Yea, you sockpuppet thread crappers are all alike. Wanta improve that preamp? Cut the zipcord,install an IEC plate terminal and throw a shield power cord w/Bybee's on it. That's what I'm doing with the Bolder Bybee Super Effect Ultra AC Cord and it don't get any better than that from what I've auditioned.

Cheers,
Robin

[JerryM]

And what's that got to do with Captive Cords vs Swappable IEC Inlets??? You could have PM'd Frank, ya'know

Frank Van Alstine made the post in this thread.  I was just taking the discussion off of this tread 

Bob

Yea, you sockpuppet thread crappers are all alike. Wanta improve that preamp? Cut the zipcord,install an IEC plate terminal and throw a shield power cord w/Bybee's on it. That's what I'm doing with the Bolder Bybee Super Effect Ultra AC Cord and it don't get any better than that from what I've auditioned.

Cheers,
Robin

"Sockpuppet thread crappers"      That's funny. 

Now, clearly, I don't know anything. As such, what would it cost for any manufacturer, whether pro or con IEC makes no difference, to install a toggle between a hard wired cord and IEC bucket. I'm sure the cost would increase for each manufacturer and consumer a bit, but wouldn't it kill two birds with one stone? Tons of speakers are bi-wire or not, right? Another two birds...

Just wondering,
Jerry

[satfrat]

And what's that got to do with Captive Cords vs Swappable IEC Inlets??? You could have PM'd Frank, ya'know

Frank Van Alstine made the post in this thread.  I was just taking the discussion off of this tread 

Bob

Yea, you sockpuppet thread crappers are all alike. Wanta improve that preamp? Cut the zipcord,install an IEC plate terminal and throw a shield power cord w/Bybee's on it. That's what I'm doing with the Bolder Bybee Super Effect Ultra AC Cord and it don't get any better than that from what I've auditioned.

Cheers,
Robin

"Sockpuppet thread crappers"      That's funny. 

Now, clearly, I don't know anything. As such, what would it cost for any manufacturer, whether pro or con IEC makes no difference, to install a toggle between a hard wired cord and IEC bucket. I'm sure the cost would increase for each manufacturer and consumer a bit, but wouldn't it kill two birds with one stone? Tons of speakers are bi-wire or not, right? Another two birds...

Just wondering,
Jerry

This has all been discussed in a certain Circle.  Doing what you suggest would in fact make all the difference in the world to the manufacturer and in this case, that's really all that counts. You either buy it as-is or you don't. Cut the cord and you will have the door slammed in your face. So if you really want to find out if an aftermarket power cord will indeed improve the sound of a component from this manufacturer, won't come a knockin' after the fact. Simple as that!

Cheers,
Robin

[Wayner]

Occam asked:

So why do you provide a 2 prong non-safety grounded cord on your products when they are obviously not ETL certified as Class II appliances, which by current standards require a safety grounded chassis?

Then I said:

I got a brand new Onkyo T4555 tuner that has a 2 prong, polorized plug with a metal chassis and aluminum front faceplate that's UL listed. I also have several new Sony products, brand new UL listed with two prong polorized plugs. What gives here?

Then Philistein said:

Your Onkyo tuner and Sony products are Class 11 rated, which doesn't nullify Occam's observation.

According to statements made here, class II requires 3 prong plug. Yet we have examples of UL listed products that don't.

So either you're wrong or UL is wrong.

[Occam]

Occum asked:

So why do you provide a 2 prong non-safety grounded cord on your products when they are obviously not ETL certified as Class II appliances, which by current standards require a safety grounded chassis?

Wayner - Indeed my sentence construction was ambiguous, if not downright wrong. The last part which by current standards require a safety grounded chassis? referred to your products , which, as I was responding to Frank, meant current AVA products.
Apologies for the confusion, but my obvious intent stays the same. Yes, my reaction was strong, but Frank's patronizing threadjack attempt 'on what does a preamp do?', IMO, merited such a response.

I purposely stayed out of the AVA Circle when the question of IEC inlets came up, as that is Frank's 'home'. Audio Central is not....

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Unless AVA products carry a UL or other ETL certification, their inclusion of a 2 prong, non safety grounded powercord is a violation of established safety standards, leastwise in the eyes of the insurance industry. Any purchaser will have to make their own judgements. Perhaps you would like me to query a property insurance intercompany central authority on this matter for further clarification?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appliance_classes

Apologies for my ambiguous wording and thak you for bringing it to my attention so that I could clarify my point.

As allways,
Paul

PS - I really think your purposely mis-spelling my moniker quite amusing, although you do seem quite old to still be in junior high school.

[DSK]

EDIT: Removed due to inaccuracy.

[Philistine]

Occum asked:

So why do you provide a 2 prong non-safety grounded cord on your products when they are obviously not ETL certified as Class II appliances, which by current standards require a safety grounded chassis?

Then I said:

I got a brand new Onkyo T4555 tuner that has a 2 prong, polorized plug with a metal chassis and aluminum front faceplate that's UL listed. I also have several new Sony products, brand new UL listed with two prong polorized plugs. What gives here?

Then Philistein said:

Your Onkyo tuner and Sony products are Class 11 rated, which doesn't nullify Occam's observation.

According to statements made here, class II requires 3 prong plug. Yet we have examples of UL listed products that don't.

So either you're wrong or UL is wrong.

Class 1/11/111 are IEC Standards

Class I
These appliances must have their chassis connected to electrical earth (US: ground) by an earth conductor (coloured yellow/green in most countries, green in the U.S., Canada and Japan). A fault in the appliance which causes a live conductor to contact the casing will cause a current to flow in the earth conductor. This current should trip either an overcurrent device (fuse or circuit breaker) or a residual current circuit breaker (ground fault circuit interrupter [GFCI]) which will cut off the supply of electricity to the appliance.

A Class II or double insulated electrical appliance is one which has been designed in such a way that it does not require a safety connection to electrical earth (US: ground).
The basic requirement is that no single failure can result in dangerous voltage becoming exposed so that it might cause an electric shock and that this is achieved without relying on an earthed metal casing. This is usually achieved at least in part by having two layers of insulating material surrounding live parts or by using reinforced insulation.
In Europe, a double insulated appliance must be labelled "Class II", "double insulated" or bear the double insulation symbol (a square inside another square).

A Class III appliance is designed to be supplied from a SELV (Separated or Safety Extra-Low Voltage) power source. The voltage from a SELV supply is low enough that under normal conditions a person can safely come into contact with it without risk of electrical shock. The extra safety features built into Class I and Class II appliances are therefore not required.

Occam's original observation relates to a product that has a Class 11 plug but 'appears' not to meet the IEC standard internally.
I am not interested if this is correct or not, I just wanted to clarify what the IEC standards represent as your response to him confused the issue.

[Wayner]

Paul,

That was not intentional, I will correct it. Forgive me as well.

Wayner

[Wayner]

I believe most products built in the US adhere to established standards described by a host of safety agencies, NEC, UL, ETL and so on. While rules and adoptions of IEC regulations migrate into US standards (very slowly), the cloud of confusion arises. This is not a fault of anyone, IMHO, but a consequence of merging standards. This is also brought about because of "global markets" where products may be sold all over the globe. The problem here to is obvious because certain regions have their own standards, importers must adhere to. That is why the back of many components have many listing agencies printed on the back.

A large company like Sony may actually have several models of the exact same CD player model, built to specific codes of the region it is going to be marketed in. You all can imagine the cost of making the same product "different" depending on where it is sold.

Hopefully at some point in time, all of the interested agencies will have a big "hoe-down" and decide on some common ground, to end the confusion and mess that we are seeing.

I was just to an NFPA 79 2007 work shop and to really get the codes right, you need to have about 5 different manuals, like the NFPA 70, NEC 2008, UL................

Wayner

[Imperial]

It all depends on what type of transformer is used in the amp, and how low it's impedance is...
Captive cord, or not...

I guess I'm like this..
Choose a non captive cable, and once you've chosen that... make it captive on the amp! Best of both worlds!

Imperial