[zybar]

Ok I am getting ahead of myself since I still haven't heard any incarnation of the 40's yet, but I was wondering what people here thought about these two choices.

In absolute terms, is one "better" than the other?  (I know I won't have the opportunity to hear them side by side, so I am really looking for some opinions.)

What are the strengths of each?

Without giving numbers, do people think the 40's w/ FST and Auric are worth more new than a used pair of 40's w/ TRT?

Thanks,

George

[Horsehead]

For me the TRT caps were a revelation compared to my stock 40s, although I have not heard the 40s with the FSTs and Aurics.  I think it would be easier to add the FST later on than the TRT caps.  I'm sure the Auric caps with FST is incredible anyway so the upgrade to TRTs probably would not be worth it (considering time and work involved to install).  One other thing to consider- the FST kits are available, but without the dressplates.  I have a pair sitting here since June and I am unable to install them.

IMO, I would get the FST with Auric caps. If you decide on the TRT'd speakers, make sure they have the upgraded Neo panels, they may not depending upon how old they are.

[zybar]

Frank,

The used 40's would have the upgraded panels.

GW

[Sedona Sky Sound]

I would say that the FST + Auricap would provide the better overall sound. Even though the TRT is slightly better than the Auricap, it does not make up for the fact that the FST is better than the Spiral and that the NEO panel crossover is now at 7kHz versus 10kHz.

I highly suggest that you get on Rup's audition list so that you can hear the speakers for yourself. Since you are in Rup's territory (and thus he will be the dealer you will need to buy from), you should be tapping into him as much as possible.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[jgubman]

I'd say it depends on finish options and your "upgradeitus".

I had the same opportunity as you, and buying used rm40s w/ TRT in cherry w/o the FST would have saved me almost exactly $1,000 over the new rm40s in cherry w/ FST and auricaps that I just purchased.

Is the FST worth the $1,000? Dunno, guess that's a judgement call. I've heard the rm40s w/ both the dual spirals and the FST, and they both sounded great to my ears. I went about a year btwn auditions though, so I can't really give a good comparison for you.

I wound up buying new because:
a) I already have an LRC w/ FST and auricap
b) My wife didn't want me to spend $4k on used speakers (biggest decision)
c) I suffer from cronic "upgradeitus" and know that within about a month of getting the non-FST speakers, I'd want the FST -- just because it's available

Although C was a little mitigated by Big B's assurance that the used rm40s could be upgraded to FST at the factory (about 30 miles from where I live) for $400.

[James Romeyn]

I am biased, currently having my perfect condition demo RM40 TRT spirals for sale.  One advantage of OEM HET is that all drivers below the tweeter are about 2.5” higher in elevation, minimizing the benefits of tilting them back.  If a spiral 40 is upgraded to HET, the lower driver’s height obviously stays the same.  My thanks & utmost respect to John Cassler of Summit Audio for recommending tilting back the RM40 spirals, & the resulting audible benefits.  

I tell customers that the HET has the lowest cost to benefit ratio of all the options on the dual spiral models (RM40 & RM2).  On the single spiral models (626R, RM1, RM1a), it’s value increases.  At my place I compared the raw drivers with XO’s attached: one HET vs. dual spirals, then one HET vs. single spirals.  Also, I listened carefully to the RM40 TRT HET at Brian’s then raced home on my R1150GS BMW to hear my RM40 TRT Spirals.  It took about ½ hour to get home.  Brian & I use the same amps, his cable was better (at that time, no more), while my preamp is better.  So our ancillary equipment was quite similar.  I strongly & respectfully disagree with Julian.  I think the HET’s value on the RM40 is overstated.  I never really closely auditioned the Raven tweeter in the STIII.  Till the new HET arrived I thought the current spirals were my favorite tweeter.  Of course a good dome tweeter goes lower, but that is irrelevant with the Neo mid panels.  

Am surprised that I must also disagree with Julian (again), on the caps, with all due respect.  The difference between the Auricaps & TRTs is quite large.  When Brian first told me the Auricap price I paid no attention because they were so pricey.  When he told me the TRT price I thought it might be illegal to sell caps so pricey.  I paid them no attention.  Then Horsehead had a cow over the TRT performance, as did everyone else, so I had to consider them.  Twenty seconds after hearing the TRTs I could not go back.  They must be the closest you can get to an illegal substance in speaker performance.  As far as I know, everyone who owns them swears they are great value in spite of their cost.  I tell everyone: you will never regret purchasing the Neos with standard Exon & Solen caps.  Solens are no slouches, & IMO the Exons add the speed & detail to the silky smooth Solens, resulting in Brian’s Best of CES 2002.  The one thing I warn them is to never ever audition the same speaker (or better model) with upgraded caps.  If the system with the cap upgrade has equal or better electronics, they are likely to go home & want the caps after hearing the difference.

[Horsehead]

My thanks & utmost respect to John Cassler of Summit Audio for recommending tilting back the RM40 spirals, & the resulting audible benefits.

Hi Jim- Would you mind explaining this in further detail.  I would agree with you on the TRT caps- once you hear the RM40 with them,  a stock pair is more than humbled.

[James Romeyn]

Horsehead
Why so long to reply (14 mins)?  John recommended tiliting back the 40s & 2s by installing something under the front of the bases.  I used old tiptoes on their sides, about 1.5" tall.  My preference is to use something a bit shorter.  But for now, even though less tilt may be ideal, image, stage, detail & transparency all improved.  A potential downside is more ceiling reflection, but overall, definitely preferred.  I'd recommend this on the the 1, 2 & 40, 1 getting the most tilt, the 2 or 40 the least.  With an appropriate tilt, the 1s performance above the bass is much closer to the 626R.  I'm 6-3 & YRMV.  The coming 30 will likely not benefit because of its 48" height.

[Horsehead]

Thanks Jim! Reply in under three minutes=

[ekovalsky]

zybar, definitely go for the used 40's with TRT  

[zybar]

[PLMONROE]

How do the  the ugraded neo pannels differ and when in the production stream were they introduced on the RM-40's? Thanks

Paul

[ekovalsky]

the panels are the same, the "upgrade" is removing the aluminum rivets on the green terminal board and replacing them with lock washers, screw, solder flag, and nut.  so if you see screw parts on the green strips your panels have been "upgraded".  if you just see the rivets you need to exchange the panels or do the work yourself.  

the panels as suppled from Level9 have, shall we say, a less than robust mechanical connection between the crossover wires and the ribbon's tracings.  if you ask me it is a design flaw.  doing the "upgrade" allows for a much better mechanical and hence electrical connection.  clarity will improve and any problems with static or drivers cutting in/out will be gone.  

i think the factory began incorporating the modifications last fall.   it took a while to figure out how to properly fix the problem because of the difficulties in soldering aluminum.  it is an easy DIY project if you have a dremel and a steady hand, and of course the right parts.

[audiochef]

I'm experiencing the same dramatic effects with the upgrade from stock caps to Auris as all that is posted about TRTs.

    Even though I'm sure  TRTs are better, and it is claimed by some that TRTs are much better  than Auris, there is no one who has A/Bd the two. All I can say is that after about 5 weeks, it still continues to get better by the day.

    ps. Paul Monroe, if you haven't upgraded your mids yet, do so asap. It is at least as effective as the cap upgrade.

[James Romeyn]

Eric
I think my excruciatingly detailed terminal repair doc is at least two pages.  I recommend anyone considering DIY read it, or send to Brian or me if I was the original seller.  I think you overstate the simplicity because you were forced to become so intimate with the problem (sorry).  

AudioChef
What's for dinner?  Just kidding.  Yes, I never literally ABd Auricap vs. TRT.  But in my dozens or hundreds of auditions of the RM40 Auricaps at Brian's I became intimately familiar with their sonic signature.  Brian can testify of my knowing instantly when changes have been made to his system.  Not bragging, it's just the way it is.  I've been slogging it to Brian's sound rooms since the mid or late '70s, since his garage at a house in the El Sobrante hills.  When I sat down to hear the TRT I was already predisposed to find them irrelvant, immoral to ask for this much money.  Actually, the specific reason I auditioned was mostly at the request of two prepaid Auricap customers, & curiosity because of all the buzz.  I was sold in about the first 20 seconds.  You can not & will not go back.

That said, the stock Solen/Exon blend still equals or beats most competitors.  Brian won Best Of CES 2002 with stock caps.  The only potential problem with stock is if you listen to options.  That's my story & I'm sticking to it.

[wshuff]

The coming 30 will likely not benefit because of its 48" height.

Hey Ribbonspeakers, got any more info on that RM30?  Inquiring minds would like to know.[/quote]

[James Romeyn]

I have a fact sheet of several pages all ready to publish on 12/2, but sworn to secrecy till then.  If I dump Brian won't give me early info next time, so I must keep silent till then.  Plus, have you ever seen Big B get mad?  It's scaaaaaaary!

[wshuff]

12/2 it is then.