[darredon]

B&O Beogram 1700 TT or Pioneer PL115D? 

Hello AC members, I don’t post often as there is so many topics covered that you can find just about anything you need to know here, however I do have a question that I need AC member input on.

I’ve been holding out to purchase a new TT, however lately I’ve been plagued with car’s breaking down and well you know the story. No money for the audio hobby. Anyway I read an article called “$1000 Worth of Sound for $100 (or less): Refurbishing a Vintage Turntable” by Ed Kobesky http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/turntables.htm
 The article got me thinking, why should I wait. I can a least get into vinyl now at a fairly cheap price and see if I like it or not. So I searched craigslist and found two turntables each for $20. I purchased both of them, a Bang-Olufsen Beogram 1700 with the original cartridge MMC20EN and a Pioneer PL-115D. The B&O is in very good condition. The Pioneer on the other hand was very dirty, no belt, and the dust cover was trashed, but the platter spun well and the tone arm felt smooth when I moved it back and forth.

B&O Beogram 1700 TT
I plugged the B&O TT on and played some Grant Green. Overall the sound was great. The music was warm and detailed and all the instruments seemed to have their own space. The article was right. My 1972 B&O TT was truly $1000 Worth of Sound for $100 (or less). I was amazed. The only thing wrong with the B&O TT were three things. 1) the left RCA cable seems to intimately go out and pops loud when I touch it 2)  even with a new record the needle pops and cracks, and at times the left channel treble seems harsh 3) there seems to be a constant hum. You can only hear it when nothing is playing. Don’t get me wrong once you have the cable adjusted and the TT playing, there was honey dripping all over the place. Sweet, Sweet music.

Pioneer PL-115D

I took the Pioneer TT into my local audio repair store here in San Diego called Classic Repair Audio http://www.repairaudio.com/. Fred the owner is great and loves to talk about classic audio equipment. Anyway, a $35 dollar tune up and a cleaning and I’ll be dammed if that dirty old Pioneer TT didn’t clean up well. I asked Fred about the needle condition and he said it was in fair condition. Because it cleaned up so well I thought what the hell lets put a new needle on it, so I bought a Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge for it. I took it home plugged it in and “Oh baby” it sounded sweet, but different than the B&O. First the Pioneer had no hum, at all. I played the same Grant Green Record, but this time no pops and cracks. A very laid back sound, organic but laid back. The difference between the two was that besides the B&O’s needle condition I felt the B&O had more air and detail. It’s hard to tell but I think it just had a little more punch to it.

Okay, okay I know, so what’s the question? First the problem, then the question.

A day or two later the Pioneer left channel started going out. I thought to myself, maybe it’s not the TT’s , maybe it’s the amp. Negative, after some testing I ruled that out. I took the Pioneer back to Classic Repair Audio. Fred opened it up and found the problem, something about a muting mechanism or muting contacts shorting out. So here’s my questions, currently I have $155 invested in the Pioneer ($20 for the TT, $35 belt & service, $100 needle) and $20 for the B&O. Fred at Classic Repair Audio said he could fix the problem and wile he had it open might as well replace all the ground and RCA cables. The repair would cost total $55. That brings my total investment to $210 for the pioneer Pl-115D, plus if I keep it I thought I should purchase a new dustcover. I found one on ebay from a guy on at http://stores.ebay.ca/proaudioexpress who makes new dust covers for vintage TT. Total cost for the dust cover $78+ $24 shipping. Anyone used him? So that puts me at $312 for the Pioneer PL-115D.

As for the B&O Beogram 1700 TT it turns out the only repair shop is Soundsmith. B&O stopped servicing their TT a long time ago I guess. I spoke with someone at Soundsmith and they told me it would cost $300 to refurbish it head to toe. As for the Phono Cartridge replacement B&O Phono Cartridges are expensive. The cheapest replacement for mine is $229. Ouch that hurts. B&O TT only take B&O Phono Cartridge which B&O no longer support. Humm that would have been useful information before I bought the TT.   


Okay in your opinion am I wasting my money on restoring these old turn tables? Should I just wait and purchase a new one?  At first I thought I made a killer deal but I’m learning that these vintage TT sound great but require some investment to get them back in order. The question is, is it worth it? Should I just wait and save up for a new one? Do the current entry level turntables sound that much better than these vintage turntables?

Audio Circle what’s your thoughts on this? Vintage or New?  Does anyone have these TT’s? If so what’s been your experience?

Lastly,  I do have to say, it’s really cool to have something that was built in the 1970’s playing again. I can see how restoring these turntables can be addictive. Anyway let me know your thoughts Audio Circle.

Thanks
Danny

Current system
GamuT Audio CD3
VAC Avatar Super Intergrated Amp
Von Schweikert VR-1 & VR-S/1 Subwoofer
Speaker Wire $Xindak FS2
Interconnects Aural Symphonics AS-One
Virtual Dynamic Nite II & Acoustic Revive power cords

       

 

[jules]

I'd say there's two main options here ...

If you want to have the work done by someone else [entire rebuild of either TT] it will be costly. You might find someone who'll do the work for a reasonable price but consider yourself lucky that B&O aren't in that side of the business any more ... they charge like a wounded bull!

If you want to have a go at it yourself, these turntables aren't impossible to work on, like many other items from that era.

The problem you've got with the Pioneer is one you could equally have with the B&O. These automatic turntables have micro-switches that disconnect the signal from the stylus when it isn't in contact with the record. Switches, particularly small fiddly switches, wear, corrode and fail over time. It's also true that it's not a great idea to be inserting something as imperfect as a puny switch at this early point in the signal chain. I've got a B&O myself and my plan is to bypass all the small switches so as to eliminate the potential for the faults you're having but also because they probably didn't need to be there in the first place.

The hum with the B&O could be significant, or not. If there's a problem with the motor it might be hard to fix. Perhaps you could check that one out. Any other source of hum might be hard to find but it should be possible to eliminate it.

Yes, the B&O is relatively expensive at $229 but lots of other styli cost even more.

Maybe you could pull one/both apart and have a bit of a play 

Maybe you start collecting lots of old turntables to salvage the parts you need [sorry, that was  ]

jules

[darredon]

Thanks Jules that switch thing does seem to be an issue. I hear you, let’s gather all these old parts and make a decent one. It sounds like you enjoy your B&O but haven't had any work needed. Did you replace your old B&O phono cartridge with a new one? How did it sound? Do you think the new entry level TT's on the market is a better value than trying to refurbish these vintage TT's?

[jules]

Did you replace your old B&O phono cartridge with a new one?

It's in the mail right now 

It sounds like you enjoy your B&O but haven't had any work needed.

Yes, I enjoy it!

I haven't had any work done to it but I have worked on it myself. It's a little like a Volvo (yes I know it's Danish and not Swedish) ... solid construction, fairly conservative in some ways, able to resist corrosion due to salt on the road [ooops maybe that one doesn't count even if it is true] and basically simple [= possible to work on].

Do you think the new entry level TT's on the market is a better value than trying to refurbish these vintage TT's?

I've got absolutely no experience of these new fangled TTs. Perhaps you could ask this Q on the Vinyl circle, though I think that if you ask 10 different people, you'll get 10 [or maybe 12] answers.

If you can solve the hum prob. and give the whole thing some routine maintenance without having to spend a heap of money you should finish up with a good TT at a reasonable cost.

jules

[S Clark]

This may be a stupid question, but does the B&O have a ground wire that is not grounded.  It makes a huge difference in hum on my table.

[darredon]

Good call Clark but I do have the ground wire connected. I hear it between changing records. I usually just mute the volume while I change records. What's your thoughts on refurbushing the vintage TT's? What type of TT do you have?

[S Clark]

I have a B&0 2400, an old Dual 1228, a JVC QL-6,  and a L-A31.  The QL-6 I just got and am in the process of modding it slightly.  Hopefully, it should be the best of the bunch.

[planet10]

I sold both of those new. IMHO the Pioneer is a better table... paying someone else to clean it up usually pushes the price up pretty quick, But you seem to have done OK (a new belt is worth 15-20 alone)

The cart can be moved to a new table so consider it an investment no matter what you do.

$78 for a dust cover is steep, but if they are being hand made reasonable. I have 2 115s downstairs -- i'd part with one for $20, shipping would at least double that ( i toss the dust covers on personal TTs -- they make good parts trays )

A rewire job would include new wire which is likely better than what is there ... i'd terminate them with jacks on the back of the TT.

Another step to improve things is to just gut all the semi-auto stuff (ie a PL112D is better than a 115D)

One has to consider that not much more than $300 these days can buy a pretty good new TT -- likely better than the Pioneer has any hope of being (Pro-jects & Music Hall (made by Pro-ject) to name one). You'd want to mount your cartridge in it. http://www.sumikoaudio.net/project/products/debut.htm

Also a note: In the 115D if the cartridge bolts are even in the slots than the cart is misaligned, you need to find someone with a Denneson or Friecert alinment guage (or download the free one at vacuumstate.com) and set it up properly.

dave

[jimdgoulding]

Does your model Pioneer have a concrete (of some sort) base?  I remember that B&O model with great affection.  It was my first upscale TT.  What a delight it was to use and was quiet and sounded warm and full bodied if memory serves.  Speaking of oldies but goodies, I used it with a Yamaha CR1000, a damn good lookin piece of work.  Took a loan out against my car to buy those and some speaks.  Spent $20-25.00 a week at the record store.   

[darredon]

So it sounds like this refurbishing turntable stuff has a threshold. I agree anything greater than $300 for a vintage TT puts me in the same market as the entry level Pro-Jects, or Rega’s. I have to wonder what percentage of the sound is attributed to the turntable and how much is attributed to just buying a great phono cartridge. I’ve heard that 75% to 80% of what you hear from any TT is a direct result of the phono cartridge. I’ve been told spend your money on the cartridge and just get decent vintage TT and it should sound better than current models. So, does that mean that I could buy a $500 cartridge for the Pioneer and it would sound better than a Pro-ject Debut iii? As with all things you can’t compare apple to oranges when making a statement like this. The question is to subjective, but for those of you who have had the experience of many TT’s, both vintage and current models what would you say is the best bang for your buck? I see myself becoming the owner of more than one TT in my future.  Is that how it is with vinyl? You end up with two or three TT’s?

[JimJ]

Is that how it is with vinyl? You end up with two or three TT’s?

I'd just want three...a really good belt drive, a Technics SL-1200MK2 for a DD, and a good vintage idler with a modern tonearm

[Wayner]

I would have spent the money on a Technics SL-1200MK5. With an Audio Technics 440MLa installed, you'd have about $600 for a real killer table. I have many vintage tables and they are a pain in the ass. After your done fixing them up, they will still be worthless, because everyone wants them for cheap. You may find them nostalgic, and I understand your desire to spend the money referbushing them. But it's money down the drain in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't give anybody $300 to fix anything.

I also suggest that you buy a new one, not some deal you got on ickbay, as the history and brutality on those units are unknown, best to start with fresh. That is why I like the Technics as a real nice starter. Excellent quality, not much money down and it will run forever, with no belts to buy, nothin' except an new stylus now and then.

Anyway, you were looking for ideas, so there is mine FWIW.

Wayner 

[rwidebrook]

Mine's a Beogram 4004 with a DIN cable+RCA adapter that also hums, but loudly, in both channels, ground lead connected or not.  It's a different animal from yours, but if I figure it out and fix it, I'll repost the answer here.  The hum doesn't "sound" to be 60hz-related.  The hum seems to be independent of cartridge swaps and persists in any system the TT is used in; maybe a new dedicated ground will work, or shielding the cables, etc. 

[rwidebrook]

Follow-up: The Beogram 4004 responded well to using an addt'l ground wire.  I had been using just the original wire plus a DIN-to-RCA adapter, but that wasn't grounding adequately.  BTW, I also solved the arm movement maladjustments, so repost here if your 4002 develops similar bugs.

[planet10]

I’ve heard that 75% to 80% of what you hear from any TT is a direct result of the phono cartridge.

Probably more like the other way round. Without a decent platform you will never get the best out of your cartridge.

dave