[AleR]

is Horrible. This is the set up

Garrard GT-25P belt drive turntable
Stanton D500 MK2
Local made (Chile) no brand preamp.

of course I wasn´t expecting much, but the sound is absolutely imposible to tolerate: no dynamic range (the fist thing I was waiting for was that)
no bass
harsh top end

so here are the questions:

1.- is it normale to get this kind of results from a "normal" turntable ?
2.- where must I begin to try to improve the sound? or it is better to return al that stuff to my friend and try with a more decent set-up ?

Thanks for your help

Alejandro

[JefferyK]

I'll start with a disclaimer: I own records. I like records. I listen to records.

Your points, one at a time:

> of course I wasn´t expecting much, but the sound is absolutely imposible to tolerate: no dynamic range (the fist thing I was waiting for was that)

CDs are capable of reproducing a wider dynamic range than LPs are (whether or not they do is another question).

> no bass

LPs have trouble with bass. Has to do with how they are cut.
 
> harsh top end

This shouldn't be a problem and is probably caused by your setup.

> 1.- is it normale to get this kind of results from a "normal" turntable ?

Yes. This is the main reason folks switched to CD: CD sounded much better in comparison. Most folks either didn't know that their LPs could sound better than they did or weren't interested in going there.

> 2.- where must I begin to try to improve the sound? or it is better to return al that stuff to my friend and try with a more decent set-up ?

I've never used a Garrard, but from what I've read about them, you probably aren't going to get much out of it, even if you replace the cartridge. So, you may want to try again.

LPs can sound very, very good. But it can take a bit of a financial investment to get them there.

Jeffery

[AleR]

Thanks for your answer !!!.  I can see that my path to good LP sound is not easy, but I realy want to try before buying my turntable. I will try again.

Thanks !

Alejandro

[Carlman]

I bought a Sony turntable on ebay for less than a $100 USD.  A good cartridge can be had for less than $100 used or new.  That's an entry level turntable that won't sound bad.  I should know, I have one.  I have rich bass, silky highs, and very good midrange.  I also have a pre-amp that is known for its good phono stage.

So, if you do some research on what works with what.. you may find a better combination of gear for phono enjoyment.

[JefferyK]

Just a few suggestions of things you might want to do to improve what you've got:

LEVEL YOUR TURNTABLE. With a bubble level. Then use playing cards under the feet (I assume they aren't adjustable) to make the table flat. This will enable your cartridge to track better.

CLEAN YOUR RECORDS. Lots of different suggestions in another thread here. This will reduce surface noise and open up the soundstage.

REPLACE YOUR CARTRIDGE. Your Stanton has a decent frequency range. It has, however, pretty low output, just 3 v. Inexpensive phono stages tend to not go this low. A mismatch could lead to: POOR BASS, SCREETCHY HIGHS and balance problems. Sound familiar? ! So, you might solve a lot of problems just by matching your cartridge output with your phono stage input.

Doing the above should help you get more out of your Garrard.

Jeffery
San Francisco

[AleR]

Thanks, I will try a diferent cartridge. I think in Chile is the only  cartridge  I can get is Shure (only DJ stuff here   )

Alejandro

[Tonto Yoder]

Garrard and Stanton have decent reputations, so I think I would suspect that no-name brand phono preamp.  Your problem of no bass and bad highs almost sounds like a turntable plugged into a line level input (i.e. without RIAA equalization). Perhaps the phono pre isn't doing its job correctly/optimally??

[hifitommy]

are you sure you hooked it up to the phono section of your preamp/receiver?  some of your complaints can be traced to that possibly.  the phono cartridge requires riaa eq and that boosts the bottom half of the audible spectrum to compensate for the necessary cut there to fit low frequencies onto vinyl.  without it, theres no bass, and the sound is tinny.

at $200, a music hall table will open your horizons. that includes a cartridge and it is a high end table in the true sense of the word.  its at the low end of the genre to be sure, but great sound will be extracted from your records with a decent arm/table/cartridge combo.  you may also get a different opinion about the dynamic range of vinyl vs cd.

[DeonC]

Hi Alejandro

I on't know the Garrard GT-25P, but in my experience there are Garrard turntables (as in JUNK) and there are Garrard turntables (as in BRILLIANT). I would suggest you try a more well known TT before you make a judgement.

Just one question about the Chile pre- did it have a specific phono input? Remember that phono cartridges need EQ through a phono stage before they'll sound correct. No EQ and the sound will definitely be just like you described. Try getting hold of an old Lenco L-70 or L-75, and use a good phono pre (you get really cheap ones like the Radioshack pre), and try again. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Enjoy,
Deon

[Psychicanimal]

Going into vinyl can be painful and in my opinion not worth it unless one already has a lot of albums (or acess to cheap ones).  If I didn't have three times as many LPs as CDs I would stick with digital and have a different, simpler setup.

In order for vinyl to compete with CDs in the signal to noise department the noise floor must be taken to uncanny low levels and tube phonostages and low output moving coils are definitely out of the question--unless you want to spend enormous amounts of money.  The other important aspects that CDs outperform LPs is in perfect pitch and tight bass.  These need to be addressed by attaining rock solid speed/rotational stability that will allow the platter to plow through transients in the grooves without a glitch.  For a belt drive this is extremely hard to do (lack of torque and fast enough speed/load sensing & correction) and also takes significant amounts of money.  Direct drive and idler wheel tables are the ticket for this.  An older Lenco idler whell deck or the Technics 1200 series are the prime candidates.  There is a thread in Audiogon on making a great TT using a Lenco deck and a Rega arm using materials from the Home Depot.  I know they have Home Depot in Chile.

One of my goals has been to make CD and LP sound as close to each other as possible and so far my analog sounds real close to digital in the areas I mentioned.  In the absence of pops and ticks the average person would be fooled into thinking they're listening to CDs.  I use a KAB modded Technics 1200 which sits on a Dennensen air suspension platform.  I would need to spend about $5-6K to make that happen with a belt drive.

I agree with the previous posters that the pre you're using probably lacks RIAA equalization.

[lonewolfny42]

Hey PA, Why no listing in the "Systems" section ? Hard to keep up with what you have.

[Psychicanimal]

Hey PA, Why no listing in the "Systems" section ? Hard to keep up with what you have.

It is hard for me to keep up, too. My listening room hasn't been set up  after one year!  This is the "temporary" setup:

30 amp, 220 V dedicated line feeding...

ONEAC CB 2338 220V/110 isolation transformer filter ( 95 lbs ) feeding...

ELgar 6006 AC regenerator (78 lbs) w/ ACME silver plarted cryo'ed outlet feeding...

TICE PC3 extension (10') feeding...

Jena Labs cryo'ed Tice PC3 ( 8 ft ) w/ Highwire Wirewrap feeding...

PS Audio Juice Bar feeding...

Clear Image T4 quad isolation filter array ( 50 lbs ) (via Jena Labs cryo'ed Absolute power cord) and

two Marantz Ma-5 Esotec class A monoblocks (SS, 30W) sitting on Marigo cones sitting on IKEA Lack table

Clear Image T4 feeds the TT, phono stage and TV ( Sony Wega 27" )

TT........

KAB modded Technics SL-1200 MKII w/ Tonearm fluid damperMarigo dots, Bob Regal foot, Phoenix Gold IC (cooked by Sean for 30 days), KAB modded Stanton Groovemaster II, KAB outboard power supply (via Tice PC3)

TT rests on Goldmund cones, w/ a Moca wood board under, then four Sorbothane hemisheres and then a granite slab supported by a Dennensen air suspenson.  All rests on IKEA Lack.

Phono:  Monolithic PS1 w/ dual mono power supply ( Audio Prism Super Natural 9.5 power cord ) and NOS Holco resistors for loading up to 75 KOhm (sitting on Audiopoints)

Pre: Channel Islands passive (sitting on Audiopoints)

Pre, phonostage on a Moca wood board w/ rubber/cork/rubber feet and w/ Bob Regal feet on top.

Speakers: Swans M1 mini monitors (modded by Dan W.) on factory stands

Speaker wire: 65cents military surplus silver plated copper, Teflon ins.

IC's Ridge Street Audio MSE Gen II

Mapleshade Silclear paste everywhere

Acoustics: RPG Profoam Level 1, Indian floor mats and wool blanket on wall, plants by the window and fiberglass pipe insulators on corners.


**********************

Not connected yet:

NHT Sw2-Si passive subs (10")
Channel Islands DAC
Parasound belt drive transport CBD-2000  ( being modded by Danny Boy )
Marchand X9 Deluxe crosover (modded by Danny Boy, too!)
Two more Clear Image T4's
Xentech Extreme 2.6 KW isolation transformer

TV looks like a Plasma.

[Rocket]

Hi,

I'm not sure if i fully agree with PA's previous post.  I know where he is coming from as you can spend oodles of money on a vinyl system.

You can however buy a good quality turntable and phonostage for under $1000k and it will trounce a bog standard cdp or dvd player.

You can also spend a lot of money on a digital front end.

regards

rod

ps to the first post may'be you should buy a better phonostage.

[mcrespo71]

You can however buy a good quality turntable and phonostage for under $1000k and it will trounce a bog standard cdp or dvd player.

Agreed.

When I moved from direct drive TT's to my first belt drive- a Rega 3 used with Benz Micro cartridge for $450- it overwhelmed my CD player in musicality but also in audio weenie terms like imaging and tonal color- thought the CD player had bigger bass.  The CD player I owned at the time was a California Audio Labs Icon MK II Power Boss, which I think I got for $1100 discounted.

[WerTicus]

i own a garrad turn table and in all honesty it bests my Denon dvd 2900.

but only with a NEW record and only for the first 3 tracks of a record before the record loses its resolution toward the centre.  the bass is fantastic though not much lower than 25 hz or so, the high end isnt as good as SACD though

and i wouldnt even know if it was setup properly.. i just was given it and i plugged it in and it happend to even be set to the right speed for records though it can play 75's and 45's and a couple of other speeds