[KS]

My money is on a loose connection on that circuit somewhere.

George,
First a primer on home wiring.  Your power supply is two hot legs (we'll call them L1 & L2) and neutral.  Each leg carries about 120 volts measured to ground, and about 240 volts measured across the two legs.  We say that these two legs are 180° out of phase with each other (L1 has electrons coming from the power plant to your home, and L2 has electrons going from your home to the power plant--every 120th of a second they switch direction) and this is single phase alternating current power.  Neutral and ground are bonded together in only two places, inside your power panel and at the power company transformer.  The voltage between neutral and ground must be zero, or that's a problem, but probably not this problem you write about.

Look at the photo in this link, or look at a panel on display at a hardware store.  You'll see bus bars from each hot leg that come down with connection lugs that alternate.  Putting in two breakers on the same side, next to each other, picks up both hot legs and gives 240 volts for electric ranges, etc.  Two breakers across from each other or skipping a spot on the same side are on the same leg.  Different brands of panels have slightly different arrangements, so you have to see what you have.  One sure check is with a voltmeter.  If you measure voltage on the load sides of two breakers (the "line" side connects to the bus; the "load" side connects to the wire that goes to the receptacle, light, etc.) and read 240 volts, you know these two breakers are opposite hot legs.  If the voltage is zero, they're on the same hot leg...there's voltage, but no voltage difference between them.

Have your electrician check every connection on the line that has the voltage drop.  One of them is loose, I'll bet.  The bad connection might be on the neutral as well as the hot line.  While he's there, have him tighten everything in the panel.  He might find something else that is beginning to loosen and fix it before it becomes a problem.  Be sure the electrician also checks that the breaker on your trouble circuit has a tight connection to the lug on the bus bar.

I see no value in moving the connection to the top of the bus bars.  There should be no appreciable voltage drop down the length of the bar, nor any noise that isn't present on the whole bus bar. 

[mjosef]

KS may just be correct....there might be a "loose" connection somewhere along that circuit line. Once I had problem with the measured 120V. at an outlet just fine, but whenever I plugged in a lamp, the bulb would light briefly then fade to off. Turns out there was a loose splice connection in a junction box midway to the breaker panel. Tighten that up and the juice flowed just fine. Granted your problem is not that severe, but it sure sounds similar. Unless your outlet is over 75 feet from the panel and the wire is 14Ga.

[zybar]

Well, I had an electrician over and he couldn't totally resolve the issue.

Even after putting in new outlets (I hIighly suggest replacing the $.39 stock outlets almost every home has - it is very obvious how much better even a $5 outlet grips and holds your power cord) and having the electrician verify/improve my work, the line voltage is still down to around 112-113 volts.

Looks like the fact that my wiring is 14 gauge and a very long run from the panel is the main culprit.

I am going to bite the bullet and have a dedicated 20 amp line installed on Monday.  The dedicated line will be run using 10 gauge wire and will be totally separate from everything else. 

I also decided to try this device from Furman to try and keep feeding my gear a steady 120 volts:

http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=SPR-20i

Between these two actions, I hope to put my electricity worries behind me.

Thanks again for all the help.

George

[zybar]

OK, the new 20 amp line (using 10 gauge wire) is installed and things are much better.

I am not losing anything at the end of the run (almost 150' in wire) compared to measurements at the panel. 

I decided to go with a pair of Oyaide R1 outlets and while they are silly expensive, they grip like hell and the electrician sure thought they were the best built outlet he has ever installed.   

Here is a picture of the R1:




The Furman unit should arrive in the next few days and I will see if that makes any further improvement.

George

[Double Ugly]

The Furman unit should arrive in the next few days and I will see if that makes any further improvement.

Has the Furman arrived yet?  Any improvements worth noting?

I'm in the process of moving to a different house where I will (again) have at least one dedicated circuit installed.  The Furman looks to be a potentially excellent addition to the system, though I wonder how it would compare to the PFC products mentioned in this thread.

[satfrat]

The Furman unit should arrive in the next few days and I will see if that makes any further improvement.

Has the Furman arrived yet?  Any improvements worth noting?

I'm in the process of moving to a different house where I will (again) have at least one dedicated circuit installed.  The Furman looks to be a potentially excellent addition to the system, though I wonder how it would compare to the PFC products mentioned in this thread.

Did you do any research into that EBAY product Jim. I tried and couldn't find anything on this company. Their website has a front page with 4 link, all of which send you to another address that's disfuntional.

Might be because I got an email from the IRS today saying I have $620 refund coming to me but I don't trust this EBAY're.


Cheers,
Robin

[srlaudio]

I would like to chime in on your discussion.  You are definitely headed in the right direction with the 10 gauge, 20 amp dedicated circuit.  I would trust that would fix your voltage drop, then plug this unit http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=01&id=IT-20_II  and you will be astounded at the difference.  I have been a high level system integrator for 30 years, and have a direct relationship with Furman.  Let me know if you are interested in getting it right the first time.

[Double Ugly]

Did you do any research into that EBAY product Jim.

Not really.  I just read through the ad and looked at the competing Powergy product jtwrace owns.

I'm about to order and install a whole-house surge protector at our new place, so I'm trying to make sure the money I spend (or more accurately stated, the money my contractor spends for me ) is for the best product for the job. 

My cursory interest should not be interpreted as an endorsement for or advocation of the aforementioned products; I'm just window shopping before the purchase.

[TomS]

Did you do any research into that EBAY product Jim.

Not really.  I just read through the ad and looked at the competing Powergy product jtwrace owns.

I'm about to order and install a whole-house surge protector at our new place, so I'm trying to make sure the money I spend (or more accurately stated, the money my contractor spends for me ) is for the best product for the job. 

My cursory interest should not be interpreted as an endorsement for or advocation of the aforementioned products; I'm just window shopping before the purchase.

Jim,

You might ping FrankS on this before you commit.  I think he ended up with one of those industrial Topaz units that he said was both reasonably priced and effective.

Tom

[Double Ugly]

Jim,

You might ping FrankS on this before you commit.  I think he ended up with one of those industrial Topaz units that he said was both reasonably priced and effective.

Tom

Excellent suggestion.  Thanks Tom.

[Bob in St. Louis]

I just read through the ad and looked at the competing Powergy product jtwrace owns.

I've been thinking about a Panamax Primax, but haven't done any other research.
Almost seems too cheap, ya' know?

Bob

[srlaudio]

Here is a news flash for you......Panamax bought Furman a while back.  Furman has a long history and reputation in the pro audio field, and Panamax came from the consumer side.  Panamax has useful stuff, but Furman is a better choice for critical audio installation.   Their balanced AC unit is proven for sure, and it incorporates all the filtering and suppression of the other units you are referring to.  The only drawback to the Furman is that it does not have a transformer isolated ground.  The AC is transformer isolated, that is how they get the +60 -60 going.  I would like to see a transformer isolated ground capability on the unit, however  you can add that as a subsystem, if desired.......That is the true way to "tech power", a worthy goal for any audio system.

[Occam]

... The only drawback to the Furman is that it does not have a transformer isolated ground.  The AC is transformer isolated, that is how they get the +60 -60 going.  I would like to see a transformer isolated ground capability on the unit, however  you can add that as a subsystem, if desired.......That is the true way to "tech power", a worthy goal for any audio system.

Would you elaborate and explain what a transformer isolated ground is?

TIA,
Paul

[zybar]

The Furman unit should arrive in the next few days and I will see if that makes any further improvement.

Has the Furman arrived yet?  Any improvements worth noting?

I'm in the process of moving to a different house where I will (again) have at least one dedicated circuit installed.  The Furman looks to be a potentially excellent addition to the system, though I wonder how it would compare to the PFC products mentioned in this thread.

Jim,

It is in the system and so far I am very happy with it.

I want to get more time with it before I make on comments on its sonics.

George

[srlaudio]

Hello all, I will try to elaborate on the grounding issue.  A standard feature of high end recording studios is known collectively as "tech power"  This generally means that the AC waveform itself is isolated and regenerated to a perfect sine wave.  All plugs intended for audio are fed off of this leg with a star wiring configuration.  The ground and neutral are not hooked to the incoming AC, a separate ground on the secondary side of the isolation transformer is installed outside and this is the isolated ground.  This is sometimes easier said than done, when my company installed Warner Brothers Loft Studio in Nashville, we had to hire a coring company to drill through 20 feet of bedrock to get to a "good" ground.  What that amounts to is a bunch of wet dirt that the ground wiring is buried in.  In this case the coring charge was $30,000.00.  The payoff was we had a perfectly clean isolated ground for the audio system.  The reason this is important is that noise such as pops and clicks can enter through the ground connection at the AC panel.  Refrigerators, Air Conditioning systems, sump pumps, washers, dryers, etc. all cause "disturbances" on the ground that is shared through the AC panel.  An isolated ground is the only way to insure the lowest possible noise floor of associated audio equipment.

[Occam]

... and a violation of NEC, leastwise for residential environments in the States. One can add an additional ground rod, but that rod must be bonded, with certain charateristics regarding resistance to the service entrance ground.

[BobM]

A lot of audiophiles have installed separate grounding rods on their property. Please correct me if I am wrong, but to use this correctly you would need to disconnect the ground onm your audio outlets from the circuit panel and hook them up via a separate wire to this grounding rod. It would need to be done for all audio components in the system or a potential ground loop could be created and hum intropduced through connecting wires/interconnects.

Couldn't this be done anyway, outside of the Furman unit? Or are you talking of replacing both the ground and - wires, only taking the + from the circuit panel?

Bob

[EDS_]

Hello all, I will try to elaborate on the grounding issue.  A standard feature of high end recording studios is known collectively as "tech power"  This generally means that the AC waveform itself is isolated and regenerated to a perfect sine wave.  All plugs intended for audio are fed off of this leg with a star wiring configuration.  The ground and neutral are not hooked to the incoming AC, a separate ground on the secondary side of the isolation transformer is installed outside and this is the isolated ground.  This is sometimes easier said than done, when my company installed Warner Brothers Loft Studio in Nashville, we had to hire a coring company to drill through 20 feet of bedrock to get to a "good" ground.  What that amounts to is a bunch of wet dirt that the ground wiring is buried in.  In this case the coring charge was $30,000.00.  The payoff was we had a perfectly clean isolated ground for the audio system.  The reason this is important is that noise such as pops and clicks can enter through the ground connection at the AC panel.  Refrigerators, Air Conditioning systems, sump pumps, washers, dryers, etc. all cause "disturbances" on the ground that is shared through the AC panel.  An isolated ground is the only way to insure the lowest possible noise floor of associated audio equipment.

Switching power supplies are known to disrupt the AC waveform as well.   

Aside from audio this is a big issue for electric utilities as distorted waveforms are less efficient from a conservation perspective.

[JoshK]

A lot of audiophiles have installed separate grounding rods on their property. Please correct me if I am wrong, but to use this correctly you would need to disconnect the ground onm your audio outlets from the circuit panel and hook them up via a separate wire to this grounding rod. It would need to be done for all audio components in the system or a potential ground loop could be created and hum intropduced through connecting wires/interconnects.

Couldn't this be done anyway, outside of the Furman unit? Or are you talking of replacing both the ground and - wires, only taking the + from the circuit panel?

Bob

Paul is right that it is a violation of NEC code in the states.  I wouldn't want to risk it due more to insurance not covering you if perchance your house burnt down, more than other reasons.

What you are proposing, seperating ground from rest of circuits doesn't actually prevent ground loops, just as outlet earth doesn't.  It also can cause more issues than it solves since there is no reason why this new ground would have the same potential as neutral/return, which it should at least in your panel. 

It wreaks of audiophoolery and not a well thought through solution.

[BobM]

Yeah, I understand that Josh. I'm just saying that many audiophiles have done this and lifted their 3rd ground on the plug with cheaters. Of course a lot of people have put non X or Y rated caps across their AC also, which is a violation and potentially dangerous.

Personally I think there's a lot more to be gained by just cleaning your plugs, conditioning your power, and chasing down and eliminating sources of hum (if they exist).

Enjoy,
Bob