[Stu Pitt]

I'm pretty much clueless on the issue and figured the people here know a great deal about them.  I'm looking into buying either a SB Duet, Sonos ZP90 and controller, or Apple TV.  I've read reviews, but they really don't compare the different ones.  I'm definitely concerned with sound quality, but I know this all depends on a ton of factors like ripping quality, DAC, and so on.  I don't have a DAC yet, but I have access to a bunch of dealers who have several on the floor and will audition a bunch of them after I sort this part out.  My current system is in my signature.

I'm most likely not going to use it wirelessly right now.  By the time I get a server, I'll have all my music on an external HD connected to an underutilized laptop with iTunes.  My apartment is way too small right now to require additional zones, but my wife and I are planning to buy a house within the next two years.  I was thinking to go wireless then, and probably add a second 'zone' so to speak that can be either outside or inside, depending on our mood, season, etc.  That's theoretical at this point, but it is a very good possibility down the road.

I don't want to get a USB DAC and hook up my laptop directly.  I don't want my laptop on my lap constantly. 

I'm assuming that all can be connected directly to a NAS.

I have no desire to use the video properties of the Apple TV, other than the OSD.

So here's some pros and cons I've been able to come up with so far -

Squeezebox Duet -
Probably least expensive
Most commonly used?
Not the easiest to set up (I had problems just setting up a router, believe it or not)
Squeezebox Boom can take care of the second zone down the road

Sonos -
Most expensive
Easier to set up (reading between the lines of reviews)
I'd prefer a ZP120 for a second system over a SB Boom (due to speaker flexibility)
Seems a little better built than SB, but not sure (is it only cosmetic?)
Other than interface, what does it do differently than the others?  Why so much more money?
No router needed if connected directly to an NAS when adding a second zone?

Apple TV -
Easiest to set up?
Built in HD means significantly less computer use
Built in HD means possibly shorter life, due to moving parts.  Is Apple TV worthless after (not if) HD goes bad?
Built in HD is a bit short on storage space
On screen display.  This is a big plus IMO.
Can be controlled by iPod Touch down the road if I want to
iPod touch and Apple TV combined price about the same as Sonos
Can't add a powered second zone like the others, and may be most difficult to move around due to this

Am I missing something?
Is one built better or more dependable than the others?  Both long and short term?
Why is the SB the most common?
Are there really any sonic differences between them, all things being equal?
But my main question, I guess, is why is the Sonos system most expensive out of the box?
Is it doing something the others aren't?

Thanks a bunch in advance for your help.

[pbrstreetgang]

What exactly are you wanting it for? Pure 2 channel? Are you going to get a DAC/ do mods? Are you going to use a NAS or just play the collection off your desktop?

[wilsynet]

The SB is a very popular solution because the price of entry is relatively cheap and it's pretty open so there's a third party community developing plugins, servers, etc.  The Duet is the hot thing these days, and if you're concerned about getting top quality sound, Bolder Cables does brisk business doing modifications for the entire Squeezebox line.

http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/Search?category=MODIFICATIONS

As I understand, the linear power supply makes a huge difference, and as you're considering an external DAC, the digital only modifications will maximize the potential of your outboard DAC.

The Squeezebox itself is very reliable and I experienced zero hardware problems in the 2 years that I owned one.  Every once in awhile the server software would stop running, so I had to restart the server.  These are fairly easy problems to work around frankly, and if you were to get a Duet, I imagine you'd have this figured out without too much difficulty.

The Sonos does not require a computer to be running, just a NAS to be configured from which the Sonos will scan and index the music files.  This explains why the Sonos is more expensive: it has enough built in smarts to act as a music server.  You still need a way to rip music and put it on the NAS, but a real computer does not have to be actually running to play music.

The Squeezebox, on the other hand, requires a computer.  From this point of view, the Duet is pretty dumb.  The computer streams music to the Duet, the Duet does little else but take the music stream and play it.  The computer itself does the hard work of indexing the files, making them searchable, browsable, integrating with iTunes, etc.  It's true that you can get NAS solutions these days that have the Squeezebox software built-in, but these solutions are reputedly somewhat slow in terms of responsiveness.

I'm a big Apple fan, but I don't care for the AppleTV.  The hard disk is small, and I can't be bothered to hack the AppleTV to put a bigger disk on it.  Plus, the optical output of the AppleTV is jittery and hence the audio quality is rather poor.

As for DACs: On the affordable end I highly recommend the Peter Daniels AudioSector DAC (USB or SPDIF versions available) for $400 - $700 (depending on case options), and on the higher end the Red Wine Audio Isabellina for $2500.

I know that you said you weren't interested in a USB DAC because you don't want to have to always have your laptop on your ... err ... lap. =)  But there's a solution for that.   Get the iPod Touch (or iPhone), and install the iTunes Remote application: 

http://www.apple.com/itunes/remote/

If you go this way, you don't even need a NAS, just a wireless network so the iPod Touch can talk to the laptop running iTunes, and an external USB hard disk to store the gigantic volumes of CDs that you'll rip to it.  I myself just 6 months ago moved from the Squeezebox to a laptop + iTunes + USB DAC + iPhone Remote and haven't looked back.  I recently persuaded someone else to do this and he is unreservedly thrilled with the outcome.  The PC or Mac through USB is a world class transport.

If this intrigues you at all, I would be happy to answer any and all questions.

[Stu Pitt]

Thanks for the help so far.  It's very informative and helpful.  Much appreciated.

What exactly are you wanting it for? Pure 2 channel? Are you going to get a DAC/ do mods? Are you going to use a NAS or just play the collection off your desktop?

I'm looking for pure 2 channel.  I'm going to get a DAC, and hopefully won't have to do mods.  Initially I'll play music off a desktop, but I'd like to go the NAS route down the road if that's a direct plug and play option (without the computer being on).

Speaking of mods...  If I'm using a DAC, do the mods to the analog section matter?  Does the power supply matter?  I'm a big fan of upgraded power supplies, but I'm not sure if they make a difference in this case.

This brings another question to mind - Any idea of what the jitter measurements of the 3 are, or where I can find them?  The only one I saw was the SB Duet's (> 50 ps).  I don't want to open up the jitter and how much if any is audible discussion yet again.  Its been discussed to death just about everywhere.  Just trying to get an idea if one unit is far superior or inferior.

Also, can any of them (including the iPod Touch and PC combo) do hi-res 2 channel audio?  I don't have any hi-res music right now, but it may be a bit more future proofing if it's capable of playing it.


wilsynet,

The iPod touch and USB DAC is very intriguing.  I didn't know this was an option.  It seems like it eliminates the middleman (SB, Sonos, AppleTV), and is the cheapest way to go.  That could free up more money to buy a better DAC.  I was looking into Bryston's BDA-1, but its way over my budget.  It sounds phenomenal.  Bryston can add a DAC into my integrated amp, at a little over half the BDA-1's price.  I was thinking that would be first option, and compare everything to that.  Only problem is that it won't have a USB input (which I didn't think I had much use for until now).  Is there some sort of adapter to change a USB into an SPDIF or anything else?  If not, the BDA-1 is far more flexible with more and varied inputs, upsampling, and so on.  If I'm spending far less money on the streamer, it'll be a lot easier to justify doubling my DAC budget.  I live 20 minutes outside of NYC, and have access to just about any non-internet direct DAC on the market, and can probably hunt down some internet direct ones as well.  I thought I saw a dealer that has the PS Audio, Bryston, Benchmark, and one or two others on display.  I was planning on going there first and getting an idea of what each one does and what my money will get me before I investigate the others.  Not that I won't look in to the others afterward, but that'll be the start of the process.

Back to the other stuff for a second - Is the iPod Touch and PC the best way to go in your experience?  Is there anything this does or doesn't do that the others will?  Is jitter an issue?  I didn't mention it before - is internet radio as easily accessible?

Even though this route complicates the theoretical second zone slightly, I can always add the SB Boom or even the ZP120.

The only negative that I can see is if this is the way I go, I'll have to put it off a little longer.  I was going to do this piece by piece - streamer, let funds recover a little from this and Holidays, then get the best DAC I could get.  I have no problem waiting if its the most logical way to go.  My Apollo sounds very good to my ears.

Thanks again for the help.  Sorry if I have too many questions.  I'd rather buy the right thing and spend more if I have to from the beginning than to buy more stuff that didn't work out in the end.  I've done that one more times than I care to admit   

[Stu Pitt]

On other question if I may...

Does my laptop have to be fully running to use any of these, or can it be powered on, but in sleep mode (if that's the right term) like when the the cover is closed?

I use a wireless router for an internet signal that's shared between my main computer and my laptop, if that changes anything.

[richidoo]

Logitech products will require a separate server running somewhere to host Squeeze Center.
Possible networking problems with the Logitech wifi remote. YMMV, heed money back guarantee if it acts flakey. Maybe they sell refurbs? I know they are getting returns.
Logitech requires external HD somewhere on net.
Scans of muisc database can take many minutes to more than hour, depending on library size.
Web based PC GUI is slow, depending on library size.
SB is cheapest streaming music solution. Duet is cheapest metadata in your hand.
Responds well to linear power supply upgrade.
Duet player and SB are easy to modify.

Sonos does not require server, it hosts the music database internally.
Needs external music HD. (Simple file-serving NAS)
Scans of music database are <30 seconds.
Sonos native windows app is rock solid and fast.
Sonos network is proprietary, not wifi. It monitors and fixes itself.
Sonos tech support is great, totally committed to perfect customer experience.
Sonos 50W amp sounds great.
Sonos is the easiest and most comfortable to use when actually sitting down listening to music.
Sonos zones can be synched sample perfect, Logitech sync is not sample perfect (echo)
Plays any file format from mp3 to Rhapsody.

Apple TV has small hard drive
inabilty to play flac
Smells like iTunes (I am biased)
Interactive remote control only by laptop or iTouch? Pricey, not optimized for music navigation like Duet and Sonos

For sound quality they are all good mid-fi quality. Your system is good enough that you will benefit from a DAC. Pick the system that has the most comfortable navigation interface, that's really the core of what you're buying a in a streamer - just a digital transport with remote. Duet or Sonos, depending on your patience and budget. Sonos is a no brainer but double the cost. I made the change from Duet to Sonos and glad I did. Did I say the Sonos amp sounds great too?

There are some other brands too, but they are more expensive like Sooloos. Looks nice, but no handheld remote.
Rich

[Stu Pitt]

Thanks Rich.  That was exactly what I was looking for.  Not that the other responses weren't what I was looking for.

So is it safe to say that the Sonos system is faster, smarter, and more reliable than the SB?  From what you're saying, it seems like the Sonos system responds quicker and doesn't have the lag problem that Duet reviews stated happens occasionally.  It also seems like there's less dropouts.  But, with a wired ethernet cable, will controller lag and dropouts happen with either system?

I'm getting a good idea why the Sonos system costs more.  It seems like less headaches.  I don't have a problem spending more money, so long as I'm better off in the end.  I briefly heard and played with an amplified Sonos at a store when it first came out.  I liked the controller, and was very surprised by the amp feeding a pair of Vienna bookshelves.  At that point it was more of a novelty item to me; a $900 novelty item.

I've seen the Sooloo, Escient, etc systems.   Way too expensive for me.  Also is it just me, or are they selling an 'audiophile computer'?  Other than a touch screen and a better DAC what's the difference?  Maybe I'm missing something.
 
I'm still contemplating the streamerless solution that wilsynet was talking about.  My only reservation is that when I move, I'll probably want to go completely wireless with it unless it doesn't make sense.  The reason why I'm not currently looking to go wireless would make sense if you saw my apartment.  It wouldn't make sense if I described it here.  Absolutely no point in it right now.

[baumer]

I was looking for an easier way to listen to my collection a while back as well. At first i was looking at hooking up a computer to a DAC and playing everything through iTunes. I scrapped that idea because i didn't want to have a computer running every time i wanted to listen to music. I also didn't want to control everything through a laptop.

I ended up buying a Duet and streaming music from a NAS in my basement. I bought the Duet because i liked the idea of being able to take the remote with me anywhere. Everything i need is displayed on the screen. I can make selections even sitting on my deck outside. Yes i do need a computer to run Squeezecenter, but only when i transfer music to my server. Other than that my computer is never on (as far as music is concerned).

I love the ease of use, for me anyway. So far i have been very happy with it. Both in terms of the user friendly aspect, and the quality of sound.

Doug

[Spirit]

I bought the Sonos system a few weeks ago and am absolutely thrilled with it!
Here is how I run my system:
2 External 500gb HDs attached to my main computer.
All music downloaded to FLAC.
Sonos ZoneBridge connected by ethernet cable to the computer.  The ZoneBridge acts as a wireless router and allows me to free up one of the ZP90s to use in a separate room.
I am currently using 3 Zone Players:
ZP90 - Master Bedroom, connected to a Creek Integrated amp that I had lying around with a pair of old RadioShack speakers
ZP90 - Basement, using this as a Headphone system with an old Yamaha Integrated amp from the 1970's,
          with a PS Audio Link III DAC (see below)
ZP120 - Family Room, connected to 2 in-wall speakers
I find the sound quality quite good.
The system is unbelievably intuitive.  Press which Zone (Room) you want to play, pick an artist and a song or album, and it starts playing instantly.
Last week I had a major meltdown of my main computer and had to bring a tech in to repair.  When the computer was fixed my Sonos system was down and I couldn't figure out how to get it to work.
I called the 1-800 Customer Service and they spent over an hour with me on the phone and stayed with me until the system was working perfectly.
Re the Basement system:  I purchased this unit from Cullen Circuits along with the PS Audio DAC.
Both units have been modded and I must say that they sound great.
www.cullencircuits.com
Rick Cullun is a very good guy to deal with.  Not cheap but so far - so good.
On the other hand - although I have never had a SB unit - anything that is plced in the hands of Wayne at Bolder Cable to modify with reap enormous benefit.  He really knows is stuff and a super individual to deal with.  Wayne just modded another part of my Big Rig and his work is outstanding.
Good luck!

[wilsynet]

1. Is there some sort of adapter to change a USB into an SPDIF or anything else?

There are such adapters but you're better off if the DAC itself supports USB.  The PS Audio DLIII is a bad example of a USB DAC is it converts USB to SPDIF first before feeding the DAC chip with its native expected I2S format.  Good USB DACs convert USB to I2S with no intermediary step.  Converting from USB to SPDIF can only harm sound quality, not help it.  However, if for budgetary reasons you need to keep an existing DAC, then the USB to SPDIF converter is certainly an option.  Here are three:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/frComputer_Audio.html#USB%20Freeway
http://www.hagtech.com/hagusb.html
http://www.audio-magus.com/product_p/ud101.htm

And here is a thread to more:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59110.msg525044;topicseen


2. If not, the BDA-1 is far more flexible with more and varied inputs, upsampling, and so on.

I don't like upsampling DACs, preferring zero-oversampling NOS DACs.  But that's up to you and your ears of course.  Did I already say that the Red Wine Isabellina, the stand alone DAC and not the preamp + DAC combo, is seriously good?  Let me say it again: it's seriously good.


3. Is the iPod Touch and PC the best way to go in your experience?  Is there anything this does or doesn't do that the others will?  Is jitter an issue?  I didn't mention it before - is internet radio as easily accessible?

I use a 5 year old Powerbook 12" as a music server and an iPhone (the iPod touch will do) as a remote control, and I think it's a wonderful solution. As for Internet radio, if iTunes can play it, then it works.  Also, it doesn't bother me that I need to have a computer running to play music.  I set the laptop to go to sleep after 3 hours of inactivity.  To wake it up, I hit a key.  If I want to make it sleep, I shut the lid.  If I forget and leave it on, it shuts itself down.  The rest of my interaction with it is through the remote so it isn't onerous in any way for me.

Although I have no doubt that Sonos offers a seamless out of box experience, my preference leans to a Mac/PC as transport.  Personal bias?  Probably. =)

While USB audio class devices are not immune to jitter, I can tell you from experience that jitter will not be an issue.  A Mac or PC (running Vista, or XP with ASIO4ALL drivers installed) is a world class transport.  When combined with a world class DAC such a combination competes with well respected high end CD players.

There is an article on Stereophile that's getting a bit long in the tooth now as USB DACs (including Gordon's) have gotten even better since then, but it may still be an interesting read:

http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/905listen/

A couple of more interesting articles are:

http://6moons.com/audioreviews/musicloverdigital/digital.html
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine10/isabella_3.html (page 3 of a yet to be finished review)

[richidoo]

Most people have no problem with the Duet, especially if used in a simple installation, with server and music all hosted on one PC with a robust network. With money back guarantee it is worth trying, since it is such a great design in many ways. For me the ease of using and owning Sonos was worth the extra money. If you want music without running a PC, then the Sonos costs not much more than Duet which needs a NAS with a strong processor to provide quick navigation response to the remote, while Sonos only needs a $200 NAS dummy fileserver. It's like everything else in this hobby, there is a product for every budget. Sonos invested to perfect the concept that SB made popular, so they charge a premium for the experience. I plan on buying even more now that I have realized what it can do to bring music into the house. That's what it's all about for me.

[golfugh]

Spirit
I'd love to hear your additional impressions on the Cullen modified Sonos in a 2-channel listening environment.  This is on my short list along with a Bolder modified duet.  I'm currently using the Cullen level 4 modified PS Audio Digi Link III DAC with an older Sony CDP and Oppo 983.  I'm impressed with the DAC and am looking for impressions on the Sonos.
Thanks
golf

[Spirit]

Spirit
I'd love to hear your additional impressions on the Cullen modified Sonos in a 2-channel listening environment.  This is on my short list along with a Bolder modified duet.  I'm currently using the Cullen level 4 modified PS Audio Digi Link III DAC with an older Sony CDP and Oppo 983.  I'm impressed with the DAC and am looking for impressions on the Sonos.
Thanks
golf

I've only had the  had the Cullen Modded Sonos for about a week so I haven't really had a good chance to air it out.  I actually spoke to Rick Cullen this morning (great guy) and he explained to me that in his testing the modded unit vs. the stock unit is a no brainer.  I would expect him to saty that, but he doesn't seem or sound like a b.s.er.  I will report my findings as soon as I can.

[golfugh]

Thanks for the info.  Once you get a good listen, I'd love to hear what you think.
Thanks again
golf

[Stu Pitt]

Thanks everyone for your opinions so far.  Its very insightful.

[mcullinan]

Id go SB3 + External DAC. SOnos has a Dac, most likely better than the SB3, but a seperate DAC will easily better the SOnos and you have options. Its easy as pie to use your computer as the SB3 server, plus its expandable, and cheaper since its not proprietary and you probably already own a computer. Stream it to your audio system already in place.
Mike

[sbrtoy]

SB3 has the most mod potential by far and can be made to sound pretty good, however the Squeeze software is often buggy and requires some fidgeting. I had a bunch of issues getting my NAS to play nice with it, so out it went.  My non-computer savvy uncle basically breaks it once a month then waits for me to come fix it, usually it is something simple but sometimes it is not.  It also loses points now that Logitech is in the drivers seat.  Also I listened to the Squeezeboom briefly and was not at all impressed with the sound quality even compared to iPod type systems.

Sonos is really slick to setup but you pay out the you know what for this as it only works with their hardware.  I have seen a couple people try to mod the Sonos but it seems to be a less successful venture than the SB3 for this.  I see Sonos as a product my wife would like but I would tire of due to the sound quality.

Apple TV is dirt cheap, yes you have to use iTunes but it really works well.  Also there are hacks to add an external drive if you need more storage (Apple kept the USB deactivated to make sure people buy the bigger one). Sound quality is pretty good if you can spend on a DAC with good circuitry to eliminate the jitter from its output.  Not sure about any modders for audio, but basically it is cheap for what it does and you don't need any PC on to use it, only to transfer files. It also has video output and I have one in my living room with all my kids favorite shows on it, saves me from pulling my hair out loading DVD's to be sure.

Another product on the horizon is the new PS Audio PWT/Ultralink which will have a plug-in card to access your music from a NAS.  Haven't seen it in person yet but it has potential although the proce of entry is much much higher ($4k range) but it is developed purely for audio and is still less than half of the Sooloos and other high-end server systems.

As always YMMV...

[cloudbaseracer]

If you want music without running a PC, then the Sonos costs not much more than Duet which needs a NAS with a strong processor to provide quick navigation response to the remote, while Sonos only needs a $200 NAS dummy fileserver.

Rich,

What is $200 NAS Dummy fileserver?


James

[kyrill]

richidoo
i disagree the SB and the Duet sounds midfi.They certainly are mid-fi unmodded
but true high end when modded to the end. Only analogue LP will better them and maybe
the very expensive >6000$ transports..

[kbuzz3]

for what its worth i bought a bolder modded sb3 for use with my mac book this year. The sound quality is very impressive into my dac.  I do agree however, that the interface is not up to par to itunes, in terms of speed, lag, graphics and album art. For example, in a year i still can only get album art to work with the squeezecenter randomly. Sometimes it's there sometimes its not. Ive yet to figure out how to get home made art to appear on live recordings. Even though it seems that the cover art is the same as commericial stuff.

My holy grail would be the SQ of the modded SB,  with the apple GUI and an ability to play flac. Then id want an easy to use remote with a nice screen. 

So right now my two cents is this. I put up with the SB quirkyness b/c as a transport its great. Break in on the bolder stuff is long and and real