[oneinthepipe]

Could anyone recommend a novice's guide to speaker placement that is more detailed than the Cardas guide, et al? 

While I am finalizing my decision about new speakers, I have been continuing to experiment with the placement of my current speakers, a pair of Spendor S3/5.  I found a position where the speakers "disappear" with many, if not most, recordings.  However, the soundstage seems narrower (width) than when the speakers are further apart.  When I move the speakers further apart, the soundstage widens, but the placement of instruments and vocals is less defined and voices become somewhat foggy.  In addition, the speakers "disappear" more when they are placed closer together (although the sound is more centered).  I can't really tell about the soundstage depth.  I followed Wayner's advice about decreasing toe-in/increasing toe-out, with good success, and the speakers are toed-out (from axis, i.e., pointed straight at me) to aim/point approximately 18" behind my head.  They are 3' from the front wall and 2.5' from the side walls.  I have a small room; 12' width by 16' depth, with an additional 5.5' width by 2.5' depth cavity (where a built-in cabinet had previously existed) to the right of the right speaker.  The right speaker is 2.5' from the wall at the outside of the cavity, which makes the front wall 14.5' wide. There is a 5' opening in the front wall between the speakers that connects my audio room (the former dining room) into a fairly large (24'X20') kitchen.  I initially had the speakers 4' from the front wall, but they didn't "disappear" as much as when I moved them back a foot to 3' from the front wall.  My listening position (or chair, as I call it) is 3' from the back wall.

The other question that I have is whether a large speaker, such as the Salk HT-3 or Salk SongTower, will have "muddy" mid-range in a room this small?  I want more low end than my Spendors are capable of producing, and I was considering the Ellis 1801 or Tyler Talo Reference Monitor (or possibly a GR Research speaker), but I heard such great things about the Salk speakers from Dave Ellis and others, that I have been seriously considering the HT-3 or another Salk speaker.  However, I read somewhere on AudioCircle, IIRC, that large speakers were contraindicated in small rooms because the low end resonance could muddy the mid-range.

[ted_b]

This is a decent primer on placement:
http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html

Make sure you are doing your changes in very small increments.  I have my speakers fairly wide (cuz they are tall and need to be outside the viewing angle for movie screen viewing) and they image and soundstage marvelously when toed-in substantially, but dispersion characteristics are different for every speaker model.  I use a laser ruler and then find something (yardstick w/markings and tripod, etc.) that you can place at the listening position to shoot the laser at, in order to make sure they are aligned symmetrically (i.e toe in is same for both speakers).

[martyo]

Have a conversation with Jim...............

[ArthurDent]

oitp - can't imagine anything Jim builds has a 'muddy' mid-range under any circumstance. As martyo notes, best bet for answers will be from Jim himself.

[Wayner]

I have had some rather great success fiddling with speaker toe-in/out this weekend. I have talked to Frank about what is going on and I think the speed of the new Insight line of equipment (800v/ms slew rate), has forced some of us (depending on speaker design) to be a little more exact with speaker placement. I don't want to use the word "sloppy", but perhaps I've been a little too non-attentive to detail in this regard. Yes, I have always made sure the speakers were toed in the same amount, going for that symmetrical thing, but never played with distance. Saturday, that changed because I decided to not let my opinion influence truth. In what may be the final spot, I moved the speakers in towards each other about a foot closer and toed them IN again about 15 degrees each. This put the intersection of the 2 aiming angles behind me and put the desired listening area 1/4 of the way into the "sweet spot" from the intersection area. Several LP's were breathtaking, noting that the speakers have pretty much disappeared. Perhaps it's that time alignment thing, I don't know. I do know that the Insight line has extreme capabilities and capable of enormous sound fields. That is also dependant on the recording. However, all recording resolutions have gone up one great big notch and maybe that is also why me and OINP are doing the speaker dance, 'cause we are so close and know this is the last adjustment to make.

Wayner

[martyo]

oitp - can't imagine anything Jim builds has a 'muddy' mid-range under any circumstance.

I agree. Jim's #(248)814-8062.

[avahifi]

Room acoustics are so important in speaker placement that it is difficult to suggest a "one size fits all" approach.

However I would strongly suggest that the wall behind the speakers be acoustically damped the best you can.

In our sound room we use acoustical fabric.  This material is available at high quality wallpaper sources, they will have sample books just like the normal wallpaper ones.  It goes up like wallpaper and is available in many colors and textures.  Cork panels, heavy drapes, or even a shag rug nailed to the wall behind the speakers will help a bunch.  The object is to keep early bright reflections from messing up the direct output from the speakers.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[oneinthepipe]

Frank:

My problem with absorption material on the wall behind the speakers is that there is a five foot wide by seven feet tall opening in the wall between the speakers.  However, I will find this wallpaper and apply it to the other parts of the wall.

Thank you for your reply.

[dB Cooper]

Maybe you could post a pic, somebody may have further ideas if they see your installation

[max190]

As Frank noted, "Room acoustics are so important in speaker placement that it is difficult to suggest a "one size fits all" approach".

My 2ch room is almost exactly the same size 12'6" x 15'6" as yours.  I have floor to ceiling bass traps in 3 of the 4 corners...(the remaing corner is an entrance door into the room)
I have absorption panels on the front, side, rear walls, as well as the ceiling.

You asked whether a largr spkr will have a muddy midrange in this sized room?  My answer would be no.

I have Dynaudio Contour S3.4 that sound wonderful.  The S3.4 are not imposing nor bulky, and will not physically overwhelm a smaller/medium sized room; as their footprint is very small and reasonable.
They produce very coherent bass that puts a smile on my face whenever they start digging deep.

With them 5' from the front, and 3' from the sidewalls, toe-in set so that they fire about 2' behind me, they image suberbly.  They also pull off a pretty good disappearing act for a 48" tall spkr.

[oneinthepipe]

Maybe you could post a pic, somebody may have further ideas if they see your installation

I will try to take some photos tonight.  Thanks.

[oneinthepipe]

Room acoustics are so important in speaker placement that it is difficult to suggest a "one size fits all" approach.

However I would strongly suggest that the wall behind the speakers be acoustically damped the best you can.

In our sound room we use acoustical fabric.  This material is available at high quality wallpaper sources, they will have sample books just like the normal wallpaper ones.  It goes up like wallpaper and is available in many colors and textures.  Cork panels, heavy drapes, or even a shag rug nailed to the wall behind the speakers will help a bunch.  The object is to keep early bright reflections from messing up the direct output from the speakers.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Frank,

Would you mind sharing which acoustical fabric that you use?  I looked online, and there are several manufacturers.

Thanks,

oneninthepipe

[avahifi]

Sorry, I don't remember the brand name of the material used.

I can say that my cat loved it when he was little, he could climb it almost all the way to the ceiling before it pealed off the wall on top of him in a heap on the floor. 

Frank

[oneinthepipe]

Here are some thumbnails of photos of my "audio room."  Please excuse the lack of paint, the cracking plaster, and the 105 year old wallpaper (where I removed the 1969 built-in cabinet).  I also threw in photos of my AR EB-101 and Super 70i, in addition to my new AVA gear.  That is my 5 year old who thinks that I was taking photos of her.  I couldn't figure out how to make the thumbnails in rows and columns.





[/URL]

[sueata1]

Hey One,,,,
That room looks to be Very reflective,,,,I would cover those walls with sound absorbtion stuff,,,,
quilts,,rugs,,foam,,etc...
Once you tame those reflections you'll be surprised how much better your system will sound,,,,

happy listening,,
Mel

[Wayner]

Last night I took my beloved picture of the Boston Gardens down (which was in-between the Paradigms) and put up my sound absorbing mat/tapestry. I have not had a real chance to listen to the speakers, but I can say that it has changed. We will be monkeyin' around with it tonight.

[oneinthepipe]

OK, I'll try some Owens Corning 703 or 705 panels behind the speakers, in the corners behind the speakers, against the first reflection points, inside both sides of the cut-out wall, and behind my listening position (against the window, inside the wooden blinds, with the blinds open). 

My wife will be thrilled.   

Thank you.
 

[oneinthepipe]

Today, I received a few acoustic panels and bass traps that I ordered last week from acoustimac.  I ordered this package with (8 ) 2" Owens Corning 703 acoustic panels and (4) 4" mineral wool bass traps.  I might have been able to make them a little less expensively myself, but it wasn't worth the savings, IMO.  The panels look very nice, BTW.  If anyone is interested, the shipping on any of the packages is a bit less than when the panels are ordered separately.  The shipping from Florida to Boston was 68.00 for 170 pounds in three packages.  When I priced four panels separately, the shipping was 99.00.

http://www.acoustimac.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=21&category_id=13&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1

I placed the bass traps in the corners and the panels behind the speakers, behind the listening position, and along the first reflection points.  I haven't spent a lot of time listening, but it has quieted the room down immensely. 

However, should I re-experiment with speaker placement?

[sueata1]

Your imaging should be very focused & Locked in tight,   when moving your head side ways side to side when listening in the (G-spot,,,chair ) those vocals should not drift.  If you have your room tamed NO Reflections you will see what I mean.....   Non-smeared imaging.

Mel

[oneinthepipe]

During the past several weeks, I have experimented with speaker placement and placement of acoustic panels and bass traps.  I also ordered and received 4 additional acoustic panels to place between the windows and wood blinds.  I leave the blinds open, and while the acoustic panels absorb additional sound, I believe that the open slats possibly serve as diffusers.  After much experimentation, I returned the speakers to the place that they sounded best before installing the acoustic treatment.  The placement of the 4 bass traps and the 12 acoustic panels had an extraordinary effect on the sound.  When I spoke with Sal @ acoustimac about the panel placement, he stated, "Isn't if funny how moving one panel can make such a change in the sound?", to which I replied, "No."  Actually, even one panel's placement can make a substantial change.  Sal was great, and he provided a lot of assistance.  My wife was also great, because she sat in the listening chair and announced the effect of every combination of panel placements. 

Here are a few photos of the panels.  I hope to paint the room next weekend.