[doug s.]

lak, the chairguy & francisco are right - power conditioning is really worth it.  and, as lak mentions, it can be done relatively inexpensively, if ya stick to industrial & lab-grade isolation transformers, purchased used...

re: speakers, well there are many different ways to skin a cat.  i'm not sure if i've ever heard any one speaker do it all, but i've heard a handful that could easily make me happy long-term:

proac's
meret re's
meret ankh's
diapason adamantes'
jadis eurythmies
avantgarde acoustics
infinity irs-lll's
ariel 10's
jm-labs grand utopias
thiel's

yust a few i've heard that are really outstanding performers, in *my* opinion!     and, many have wery different design/implementation philosophies...

doug s.

[TheChairGuy]

Ian,

I'm not sure it's greed; it's just business, legit added costs and, sometimes, bureacracy.  

For instance, I make chairs in China (hence, my moniker).  My best seller sells for US$19.99 in many retailers in the US and sells really well.  In Canada, it sells for Cdn$34.99 and not so well. Part of this is becasue it's not the right product for Canada (seat height is 10" high in a country largely without beaches-they want a taller chair), but there are other reasons:

* 0% duty in US; 5.5% duty in Canada.

* We have to add US$0.50 more to the cost in Canada because we have to print bilingual (French-English) hangtags and becasue we have extra repaorting to Canadian Custos office regularly.  More time and effort = more money needed.

* Exchange rate is 1.35 Cdn to US $.

Unfortunately for us, to Canadians, $20 is $20 and $35 is $35.  They don't care that there are all these factors in the way..they want their chair for $20 - less if they can, but certainly not more.

In the case of (ATC) speakers, you have the additional cost of freight from the UK to the US with a commodity that is largely air (inside the speakers is mostly air).  Now, all this may not obscure the fact that the importer runs an inefficient organization or are pigs, but it's a start in understanding the process of higher costs in other countries.

[TheChairGuy]

Doug S./Lak,

Where the heck were you guys when I plunked down $1000 large two years ago for a PS Audio Plant PP300?  

Anyhow, I heard and do still here quite difference with it - at least it works.

The PS Audio website was and is pretty persuasive on the subject of isolation transformers vs. their power regeneration (Power Plant) devices.

I've bought enough audio crap that was just that (crap!). I may have overpaid, but I'm still kinda' warm that it worked in my system.  

[IanATC]

Ian,

I'm not sure it's greed; it's just business, legit added costs and, sometimes, bureacracy.  

For instance, I make chairs in China (hence, my moniker).  My best seller sells for US$19.99 in many retailers in the US and sells really well.  In Canada, it sells for Cdn$34.99 and not so well. Part of this is becasue it's not the right product for Canada (seat height is 10" high in a country largely without beaches-they want a taller chair), but there are other reasons:

* 0% duty in US; 5.5% duty  ...

That is quite a difference from say a wilson audio watt/puppy system 7.  That thing has about $1k in parts [per pair.  The dealer pays about $10k [USA]  and then sells them for $22k.  

That's quite greedy.

So is a 100% markup from $2800 to $6k.

That will pay a lot of rent.

[doug s.]

mark-up on imported audio equipment is not all greed - there is also a legitimate increased cost of doing biz overseas for a lot of small specialty companies: shipping, adwertizing, customer support, dealers, etc...  and, even if greed is not inwolved even a little bit, any distributor is entitled to make a fair profit, which means higher prices...

doug s.

[markC]

Let's not forget that some of the money has to go into research and development. Although I won't pay retail for such items as power cords, someone has to get paid for all the hours of designing and testing this stuff.

[audioengr]

azryan wrote:

we can't do a damn thing about the actual music

Maybe you can.  I posted my discontent with the recording quality of Josh Grobin's first disk on his website.  Maybe he will listen, maybe not...

[audioengr]

I'll weigh in on the original thread here:

I like really revealing, extended speakers that have pinpoint imaging, but not necessarily a large sweetspot.  I get to hear a lot of speakers at CES and the Stereophile show each year.  These are the only ones that I have found that qualify:

KEF 104/2 - modded units are my own reference
Dali
Harbeth
Some B&W's - 803's, 805's
Vandersteen
Swans
Some Infinity

Here are some that I found to be dissapointing:
Wilson Audio
Sonus Faber
Ariel
Thiels
Proacs - some of the older ones are pretty good, but difficult load for most amps
Cain and Cain
Avante-garde

I will resist trying to rate flat-panel or ribbon speakers.  Trying to get some soon...

[rkapadia@ROOP]

Regarding the original post, I think your statements are point on - exactly the traditional stereotypes of each design philosophy.  I've listened to quite a few implementations of competing technolgies that excel at what they're "known" to be poor at...

SET amps that are as smooth as the best solid state implementation, with bass to match on the right speakers.

Horns that sound one-note boomy, and exceptionally dynamic cone and dome speakers.

The list goes on and on...the only point I'd like to make is that the implementation of the technology is far more important than the actual choice of initial design philosophy.  The very point of engineers is to overcome the actual everyday limitations that don't exist in theory, as theory is often based on a perfect world.  Engineers wouldn't be around if there weren't comprimises to be made in designs and manufacturing.

Sometimes, it's best to close your brain, ears, and mouth, and let your ears do the thinking, visualizing, and talking as to the judgement of the sound in front of you.  

Rup

[IanATC]

I'll weigh in on the original thread here:

I like really revealing, extended speakers that have pinpoint imaging, but not necessarily a large sweetspot.  I get to hear a lot of speakers at CES and the Stereophile show each year.  These are the only ones that I have found that qualify:

KEF 104/2 - modded units are my own reference
Dali
Harbeth
Some B&W's - 803's, 805's

  I recently auditioned the harbeth Compact 7es.  It has bass that can be classified as a throwback to the old "Brit"  sound. I found the bass to be too soft and diffuse.  
  The B&W N series:  I have not heard them, but I hope they are an amazing leap better than the CDMNT or 700 series which sound to me like a total loss.  They have the worst/cheapest tweeter with the poorest implementation I have heard in any speaker over 400.00.

[audioengr]

IanATC wrote:

I recently auditioned the harbeth Compact 7es. It has bass that can be classified as a throwback to the old "Brit" sound. I found the bass to be too soft and diffuse.
The B&W N series: I have not heard them, but I hope they are an amazing leap better than the CDMNT or 700 series which sound to me like a total loss. They have the worst/cheapest tweeter with the poorest implementation I have heard in any speaker over 400.00.

Like most speakers, there are only one or two stellar performers.  I like the largest Harbeth with the supertweeter.

As for the B&W, same thing goes. The cheaper lines are not great.  THe top of line is very good.  They did make a really cheap speaker, the DM302 which is quite amazing for its cost.

[singhal]

The tweeter in the B&W 700 srs  is the B&W Signature tweeter, newer and goes higher than the N800 tweeter.

[jomina]

 I recently auditioned the harbeth Compact 7es.  It has bass that can be classified as a throwback to the old ...

Hi,
I have Compact 7s, and don't find this at all. They go quite deep and the bass is surprisngly dynamic and the timing (as in Pace, rhythm and...) is spot on.
The first time I used them at home, I was very surprised to find Charlie Mingus & double bass actually in the room with me. Spooky and very exhilarating.
That said, speakers are a *very* personal thing.
The Harbeths are on 60cm Soundanchor stands with a blutack speaker/stand interface. They are about 20cms from the rear wall in my concrete hutch.
Listening ranges from Taiwanese Aboriginal polyphonic chants through Blue Note on vinyl to JayZ (also on vinyl )