[IanATC]

After reading around a bit I think I can understand why certain people fancy certain speakers (and other products)  It may be something like this: (These are not necessarily reflective of my own opinion, this is a composite of opinions what I have read) It seems to clarify and quanitify to me the vast assortment of tastes.

Floorstander reason:  I want fullrange power-no compromises, small speaker won't do. I want maximum SPL in a large space.  I want a life-sized orchestra, not some tiny "glorified headphones"

Monitors:  I want imaging, detail, and control.  large speakers muck things up. My subwoofer reaches the bottom when I decide to use it, otherwise it can be switched off. You cannot switch off a large woofer in a floorstander.

Electrostatic/Planar: Other designs sound boxy and/or slow to me.  Horn speakers are evil.

Horn speakers: Other speakers sound weak, and dynamically restricted to me.  Stats lack slam.  Single-drive fullrange are just "midrange"  to my ears.

Fullrange/(single driver): crossovers suck power, restrict dynamics, and intruduce ugly phase errors.  This is pure music. Horns are shouty nonsense and time delay.

SET:  minimal circuitry= maximum music.  Anything else is "dirty power"  and distorted.  Solid state is the work of satan himself.

Solid state: This sounds closest to the truth to me with the best bass
tubes sound euphonic, romantic, and distorted to me

Headphones:  even with the perfect room, headphones are cleaner, clearer with better imaging.

Digital source: vinyl is dead.  It is little more than a hockey stick with a nail in it.  It doesn't have bass like digital.  

Vinyl:   digital is rubbish!  It is the result of "Perfect crap forever" it is merely a sample of the analogue truth.  Real music comes from an LP, not "software."

Now, before anyone gets angry over something here, again, this is from other postings around the net.  Please add ideas if you have read them.  I think this is just a partial list of why people like what they do. I like this hobby when it's about music.  

[Hantra]

Or perhaps, like I did, people end up with whatever sounds better to them, and in their room. . .  

That's a novel idea!

[Audiobudha]

Those sentiments are basically what I've gleamed over the last three months in visiting these audiophile web sites.

As with cars, women, dogs, cats, colors, books, politics etc. - sound is in the ears of the beholder. Having said that, research and knowledge can bring one closer to their musical reproduction goals - whatever they may be!

[Pancho Urbano]

Indeed - sound should be evaluated by the beholder - mediated  most often by financial resources.  Not all of us have the cash to spend on audio - so we have to find joy in making smart decisions within our budgets.

The most glaring absence in most audio discussions seems to be the music.  Often, content is pushed to the margins in favor of discussions of form and delivery.  There is so much absolute crap music out there (again, - quality lies in the "ear" of the beholder).  I think we should consider the music in a more central way.  
-pu

[azryan]

I think most of those are spot-on. Very interesting!

The Digital and Vinyl ones don't quite seem to have any points in favor of either though like you did w/ the others on the list. I'd suggest a slight revision on those.

You seem more than clever enough for me to challenge you to improve those two.

I think the question now might be 'What can we do with this info' to learn something about this crap we all argue about all the time?

Seems like this could be a good spot to really 'say something' in this thread about diff. technologies and speaker designs beyond the utterly simplistic 'Just shows we all like diff. stuff'.
Not a terribly clever revelation that.

Hmm... I'll have to give this one some thought.

Should we try to argue which of these 'typical thoughts' on these subjects are most correct?

Or would people say they're all about as true as they are untrue?

Maybe from here make sublists explaining these points on each topic in greater detail but trying to enter only known FACTS and trying to leave out unproven audio voodoo?

Maybe see who feels which of these 'truths' listed here are actually their own general beliefs to see if things like 'fullrangers' totally outnumber 'monitor' fans or the reverse?

Or who thinks careful quality x-overs do little damage, and who thinks 'no x-over' is far more transparent?

Can we do anything w/ this clever list other than argue more about the subjects?

Hmmm....

[azryan]

Pancho,

"-The most glaring absence in most audio discussions seems to be the music. Often, content is pushed to the margins in favor of discussions of form and delivery."

While I think that's true, I think the reason is that unlike all other elements of our systems... we can't do a damn thing about the actual music.

Either you like that artist or not. If the recording is crap. Too bad. It's great... well you lucked out.

Messing w/ your system is the only thing you can do... or change your musical 'taste'.

And talking 'taste' leads to unending debate.

'Cept the more obvious stuff like say.. -"Only idiots listen to Amy Grant."... Things that are so blatantly true that they're beyond debate. heh

[_scotty_]

Something to bear in mind,a consensus of opinion seldom reaches to the truth of a subject.  Don't be afraid to think new thoughts or do things differently than the prevailing consensus would dictate.  Much of current audiophile "wisdom" is not founded on knowledge gained through
the application of scientific method. Or 8 billon sold doesn't mean I want
one too, and hold the onion and mayo.

[Pancho Urbano]

"While I think that's true, I think the reason is that unlike all other elements of our systems... we can't do a damn thing about the actual music."

Azryan - Excellent, excellent point.  Although I disagree with you about Amy Grant...

I like Audiocircle because of the Music Circle and the "what are you listening to right now" option on posts.  The best stuff I've heard has been suggested by friends - it is a nice tool here on the circles.  While I am guilty myself, I think the Music Circle is underutilized.  I'll have to remember to post there myself if I am going to suggest it to others.  Oh well...

[TheChairGuy]

Ian,

That's quite a list and a lot of fun.

Clearly, this list is not completely reflective of your opinions if, indeed as your moniker and avatar suggests, you are a fan of ATC speakers.  Those across the pond have heard them more often than in the US - they are really stunning pieces of kit.

The littlest passive (I think the ATC 7) has a hand doped 5" cone and an easy to listen to silk tweet that has a tone that really is great from a little teeny box.  Imaging is sicko unreal, but man, do these little fellas need brutish solid state power.  I think, they take up to 300 watts max and need 100 before they can belt out a tune. No bass to speak of (sealed box), but the rest is so good, you forget it's missing.  

I heard the step-up (passive) from that one too - I think, the ATC10(?) - another stunner but twice the cost at about US$2400.00.

[JLM]

Limiting factors to quality sound reproduction in the home:

1.  Poor quality of most recordings.  Unfortunately seems like my favorite music falls into that category.

2.  Poor room/room set up.  "Normal" residental rooms are too small, nearly all are poorly designed for good acoustics, and those darn family members seem to limit placing equipment were it belongs to provide the best sound.

3.  Limited money.


Me, I'm a:

Floorstanding, fullrange/single driver, SET, digital kinda guy.

[IanATC]

Ian,

That's quite a list and a lot of fun.

Clearly, this list is not completely reflective of your opinions if, indeed as your moniker and avatar suggests, you are a fan of ATC speakers.  Those across the pond have heard them more often than in the US - they are really stunning pieces of kit.

The littlest passive (I think the ATC 7) has a hand doped 5" cone and an easy to listen to silk tweet that has a tone that really is great from a little teeny box.  Imaging is sicko unreal, but man, do these ...

I have the ATC SCM-12's.  I just purchased them for the US dollar equivalent of $1450 including massive stands (+$300 US) from a company called "Something solid"  [XF model].  My ATC's are powered by a Musical Fidelity A3.2cr Preamp, and 308 power amp.  Plenty of power.  In fact, the dealer only used 150 wpc ATC amp, and they sounded great.  
  The 7's were a touch diminutive, and the active 20's out of my budget.  I have the SCM-12 [as my avatar]  high-pass cross over @ 50 hz in conjuction with an REL sub.  
   Alas, my Naim cd-5 was no match for the dealers Naim cds3.  I can dream though...

[Carlman]

I think the list at the beginning of this thread is a composite of many other sites' views and opinions... which is very cynical in general... and why I and many others have landed here.   AudioCircle is a bit different.  If you want to build a system for $400 or $40,000 the people here are most interested in helping you build what suits your tastes best... not bashing people for what they like or dislike.  

If the list described characteristics instead of dislikes, it would mean more.  As it stands, it's kind of humorous but, falls short of being useful or meaningful to most people here.  However, there are some that will love this kind of thing unfortunately.

[IanATC]

I think the list at the beginning of this thread is a composite of many other sites' views and opinions... which is very cynical in general... and why I and many others have landed here.   AudioCircle is a bit different.  If you want to build a system for $400 or $40,000 the people here are most interested in helping you build what suits your tastes best... not bashing people for what they like or dislike.  

If the list described characteristics instead of dislikes, it would mean more.  As it stands, it' ...

The list really doesn't speak to the fact some people simply buy what they like to hear.  A chap I work with purchased a set of used LINN bookshelf speakers for the US equivalent of $100.  He loves them to death.  
   My list was -as you alluded to-  garnered from persuing a couple of other audio boards that are populated with some genuine hardcore types.  It does sound cynical by reading it.  I am not the cynic, especially not here.  This is more the "normal"  crowd, not the foaming-at-the-mouth audio Gods you see elsewhere.
  If anything, I am more impressed by a great sounding affordable setup, rather than the latest cost-is-no-object products that only a few would purchase.  25k for a phono stage?  91k for speakers?  85k turntable?  Not for me, not in my lifetime.  I do not even read articles related to products over about 5k.  There is a certain point where diminishing returns and common sense takes over.
  Again, do not take my post too seriously.  I actually got a bit of a chuckle at the wafer-thin mentality that occupies the audio fringe.  I wonder if real converasations take place face-to-face like the ones I have read on otehr boards.  I'd think they'd terminate early in a brawl!
Cheers...

[Carlman]

Again, do not take my post too seriously. I actually got a bit of a chuckle at the wafer-thin mentality that occupies the audio fringe. I wonder if real converasations take place face-to-face like the ones I have read on otehr boards. I'd think they'd terminate early in a brawl!  ...

OK.. I guess I read it right but didn't understand where you were going with it.  I got a bit of a laugh as well but, that's about it.

As to the face-to-face bit; in my experience with car and audio enthusiasts, people do not act this way in real life.  Most of the real nasties troll forums because they can do it without any fear of repurcussions.  The cowards are out there.  The few I've met that had a lot of crazy stuff to say on a forum are quiet little kittens in person.  I've never met a true troll in person.  I would imagine it is because they're too scared to interact in person.  Some people have issues.  I'd prefer a brawl to dealing with the trolls any day.

[Lak]

Limiting factors to quality sound reproduction in the home:

1.  Poor quality of most recordings.  Unfortunately seems like my favorite music falls into that category.

2.  Poor room/room set up.  "Normal" residental rooms are too small, nearly all are poorly designed for good acoustics, and those darn family members seem to limit placing equipment were it belongs to provide the best sound.

3.  Limited money.


Me, I'm a:
Floorstanding, fullrange/single driver, SET, digital kinda guy.

Don't forget clean AC power.  If your power filtration system is non-existent or sub par, you're missing an unbelievable amount of music and detail from any type of speaker.
 

[JLM]

Lak:

I've heard the "magic midnight hour" clean power effect, but somehow it's never been a problem where I've lived (mid-Michigan, land of many types of weather, but little sunshine).

Maybe you all are suffering from solar flares?  

[Lak]

JLM,
I never realized how much I was missing from the music until Psychicanimal had me over to his townhouse and I heard for myself what a good power-filtration system could do. I also thought my minor power-filtration let me hear the music, but I was wrong, the AC wasn’t really clean.  
It is now, darn solar flares!  

[TheChairGuy]

Carlman,

Yeah, it looked like a 'flame' post to me first, but Ian's remarks are not his own, just collected from many others on every side of the audiophile spectrum.  It's pretty amazing that that many opinions exist - we all listen with a 'similar' set of ears and the same music.

Ian,

Wow - our US importer must tack on a mint to the ATC line....I think the passive 10's are $2100.00 here.  No wonder they sell well in the UK...just too darn pricey in the US.  Tho, fantastic sound they have.

Lak/JLM,

Power conditioning really works...I really, really, really didn't want to spend $1400.00 on a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet and Power Plant 300.  But, doggone it, they work.  Both in Washington DC and now outside of San Francisco.  I haven't put pencil to it, but I think it's about 1/5 or 1/6 of my total system outlay.  No sir-ee, I did not want to spend it, but it improved every component immensely.

[IanATC]

Carlman,

Yeah, it looked like a 'flame' post to me first, but Ian's remarks are not his own, just collected from many others on every side of the audiophile spectrum.  It's pretty amazing that that many opinions exist - we all listen with a 'similar' set of ears and the same music.
   I thought I'd read enough on  a certain other board.  They are far, far too concerned with equipment, and checking each others knickers for the package size.  I thought the opinions there ran the gamut, all the way from overboard to absurd  

Ian,

Wow - our US importer must tack on a mint to the ATC line....I think the passive 10's are $2100.00 here.  No wonder they sell well in the UK...just too darn pricey in the US.  Tho, fantastic sound they have.
   Yes the same thing happens with some other brands.
Sonus Faber and Vienna Acoustics are about 100% more expensive in the USA.  Dynaudio has a huge markup also.
  Over here, we have the joy of paying the pound amount of some American products.  You think Bose 901's are too much?  Change the dollar sign, to a pound sign and multiply by 1.7.  The Wilson Audio Specialties watt/puppy 7 is listed at 22,000 pounds, or 1.7 times as high as in the USA.  It's all greed of the end companies or importers.
  That is why, above all else it is important for one to listen to products, and not reviews.  
  IMO, the ATC SCM-12 easily bested the 4k +  Dynaudio anniversary monitor.  The price difference here is staggering.  But again, for me it's music and design, not pricetag.

[Lak]

Clean power can be achieved with use of items (isolation transformers or Oneac devices) purchased used on Ebay for between $30-$300. There have been other posts on Audiocircle earlier this year about it.