[hartwerger]

My speakers are Merlin VSM-M, a two way floor standing speaker.  My current listening room is medium size 14x18.  Its a shared family room.  My problem is that room is becoming more of a family room than listening room.  In other words, my room is continuously occupied by someone other than me and I'm not able to listen to music when I want to (its not fair, especially since I pay the bills).   Therefore, I've been contemplating moving the listening room to a room in my basement. 

There are several problems with the basement room.  The first is its quite narrow.  The width is 12'.  The length is over 2x that, 25' maybe.  If I went short wall placement, I can see the speakers at 3' from each side wall and then 6' apart.  I can't really see long wall placement since I'd be forced to sit too close to the speakers.   

The second issue is that the room has a lot of junk that has no where else to go (getting rid of the stuff isn't a viable solution, at least not until the wife says it is).   If I go with short wall speaker placement, I should have enough room to get the speakers out from the wall behind them by 3 1/2' to 4'.  The problem is the junk in front of the speakers.   There is a very low sitting futon sofa that will have to sit in front of one of the speakers.  The sofa is agains the side wall.  It will not be blocking the woofer, but it must be, I assume, absorbing much of the forward dispersion of the speaker.  The only way to avoid this situation would be to get the speaker further away from the sidewall, but this would put the speakers too close together at under 5' apart, especially if I aimed for symetry by getting the other speaker at an equidistant from the other sidewall.  (Hope this is all making some sense.)

So, I guess the questions are:

1) for such a narrow room, is long wall placement out of the question (I think it is, but I'm keeping an open mind to all ideas).
2) do the speakers have to be equidistant from the sidewalls; should placement be symetrical.
3)  how awful would it be to have the sofa in front of the left speaker even though the sofa sits low enough to the ground that it would not be obstructing the woofer or tweeter. 
4) is 3' from the sidewalls enough or am I going to have noticeable sidewall reflection problems. 

Note:  since its a basement room, bass traps are possible, though I'd only be able to use them behind the speakers.  Also, I currently use mildly absorbent treatments such as the Room Tunes pack and the Eightnerve triangles in the corners in my current listening room and, of course, they be easily moveable to the basement room. 

Thanks in advance for any help, thoughts and ideas.

[doug s.]

My speakers are Merlin VSM-M, a two way floor standing speaker.  My current listening room is medium size 14x18.  Its a shared family room.  My problem is that room is becoming more of a family room than listening room.  In other words, my room is continuously occupied by someone other than me and I'm not able to listen to music when I want to (its not fair, especially since I pay the bills).   Therefore, I've been contemplating moving the listening room to a room in my basement. 

There are several problems with the basement room.  The first is its quite narrow.  The width is 12'.  The length is over 2x that, 25' maybe.  If I went short wall placement, I can see the speakers at 3' from each side wall and then 6' apart.  I can't really see long wall placement since I'd be forced to sit too close to the speakers.   

The second issue is that the room has a lot of junk that has no where else to go (getting rid of the stuff isn't a viable solution, at least not until the wife says it is).   If I go with short wall speaker placement, I should have enough room to get the speakers out from the wall behind them by 3 1/2' to 4'.  The problem is the junk in front of the speakers.   There is a very low sitting futon sofa that will have to sit in front of one of the speakers.  The sofa is agains the side wall.  It will not be blocking the woofer, but it must be, I assume, absorbing much of the forward dispersion of the speaker.  The only way to avoid this situation would be to get the speaker further away from the sidewall, but this would put the speakers too close together at under 5' apart, especially if I aimed for symetry by getting the other speaker at an equidistant from the other sidewall.  (Hope this is all making some sense.)

So, I guess the questions are:

1) for such a narrow room, is long wall placement out of the question (I think it is, but I'm keeping an open mind to all ideas).
2) do the speakers have to be equidistant from the sidewalls; should placement be symetrical.
3)  how awful would it be to have the sofa in front of the left speaker even though the sofa sits low enough to the ground that it would not be obstructing the woofer or tweeter. 
4) is 3' from the sidewalls enough or am I going to have noticeable sidewall reflection problems. 

Note:  since its a basement room, bass traps are possible, though I'd only be able to use them behind the speakers.  Also, I currently use mildly absorbent treatments such as the Room Tunes pack and the Eightnerve triangles in the corners in my current listening room and, of course, they be easily moveable to the basement room. 

Thanks in advance for any help, thoughts and ideas.

1) for such a narrow room, is long wall placement out of the question (I think it is, but I'm keeping an open mind to all ideas).
not out of the question - you could try it.  but i think short-wall placement likely would be better.  if you try long-wall placement, i would suggest extreme sound absorption behind the listening position - likely you would be sitting right next to the opposite wall behind you, in order to get distance between the speakers & the front wall, & you & the speakers.  sound absorption against the wall behind the speakers would also be good, as the speakers will still be closer than you would normally want.  you could also try spacing them further apart than you normally would - 10' or even more - & toe them in a lot.  mebbe even toed in so the axis crosses in front of the listening position.

2) do the speakers have to be equidistant from the sidewalls; should placement be symetrical.
you may actually get better response if you slightly off-set the placement, such that one speaker is, say, 6"-12" closer to one side wall than the other, w/the listening position similarly off-set.  this can reduce effects of any bad room nodes, as each speaker will then be loading the room differently than the other one.  (this is true for either short or long wall placement.)

3)  how awful would it be to have the sofa in front of the left speaker even though the sofa sits low enough to the ground that it would not be obstructing the woofer or tweeter. 
it would be awful, imo...

4) is 3' from the sidewalls enough or am I going to have noticeable sidewall reflection problems. 
i think you could have them even closer to the sidewalls than that - i would start with the centerlines of the speakers 8' apart, & work from there...  and, regardless of final positioning, extreme sound absorption at the speakers' first reflection points from the listening position, will help immensely.  easy enough to do - yust place a mirror along the wall, such that you can see the drivers from the listening position, & place the sound absorption there.

i once had a listening room 12x24 w/10' high ceilings; speakers were on the short wall, & it sounded pretty nice, even w/o sound absorption at the first reflection points...

hth,

doug s.

[laserman]

Doug S. has made some great suggestions and comments.

I too faced an issue of a long narrow room...30' X 13'…for my second system and found room treatment to be an invaluable addition to the overall sonic characteristics achieved.

First, Hartwerger have you looked at having shelving put up so you can store whatever you can on shelving?  You should seriously look at doing that and incorporating it into the room.  In my previous home, I used metal shelving and then hung black sheets from a stretched taught cable line.  It really helped act as a diffuser and some absorption...but mostly diffuser.  It’s WAF friendly too.

My speakers are set up on the short wall and they stand about 1/3 of the way into the room.  As Doug suggested, one speaker is closer to the sidewall than the other and they are 7' apart measured from the center.  The walls are treated at the first reflection - 2" thick on one side and 4" on the side where the speaker is closer to the sidewall.  I also have panels behind the speakers and on the ceiling at the first reflection to where I sit.  I sit about 8' in front of the speakers, so I am quite a distance from a rear wall.   I utilize some bass traps too.

Setting them up on the long wall is probably not practical, but as Doug stated if you do decide to go that route, you will need to have acoustic panels on the wall behind you.  IME, they will need to be at least 4” thick and occupy at least a 6’ h x 6’ w area behind your listening chair.  I would also put extra 2” thick 2’ x 4’ panels on either side of the 6’ x 6’ area.  You also may want to look at using diffusers on the front wall.  The rear of the Merlin’s should be a least 2’ away from the front wall but it means you will be in a nearfield listening position.   IIRC, it is not advised to set them up in the center of the long wall.  Experiment with front wall first reflection to see what works best.

Lastly, Glenn from GIK was very helpful and usually lurks with Brian from GIK in this forum.  Also, Ethan Winer from Real Traps is very helpful to folks too.

Good luck and hth too,
L

[bpape]

Narrow rooms can present some issues because the speakers end up being too close to the side wall.  Not only does this cramp the image but it also can cause serious bass response issues due to SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response).   The SBIR can be handled via treatment on the wall directly beside the speakers.  The imaging just is what it is.

Also, IMO, the Merlins do a wonderful job in a nearfield setting.  I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss sitting closer to them than the are apart.  That can give you a very nice, deep image and take the room out of the equation a little bit.  You'll still need to deal with it but it's a better starting point.

Bryan

[Alwayswantmore]

I'm doing nearfield in a small room - 12 x 13. Speakers are about 6' apart (center to center) out from the front wall 3 feet or so, and I sit 4-5 feet out from the front baffle of the speakers. The room was unlistenable prior to getting about $1,000 worth of GIK treatments. Now it sounds pretty darn good, especially considering the small size. Here's a link to my blog on the room and acoustical treatments... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.0

The treatments were probably the best bang for the buck I've ever spent on audio equipment. I also find the nearfield totally acceptable. I'm close to the performance, but the resolution and image are very nice (and transparent). Only serious down side is limited front to back depth. Otherwise the sound is very impressive -- and musically satisfying. Good luck, Kent

[hartwerger]

I'm doing nearfield in a small room - 12 x 13. Speakers are about 6' apart (center to center) out from the front wall 3 feet or so, and I sit 4-5 feet out from the front baffle of the speakers. The room was unlistenable prior to getting about $1,000 worth of GIK treatments. Now it sounds pretty darn good, especially considering the small size. Here's a link to my blog on the room and acoustical treatments... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.0

The treatments were probably the best bang for the buck I've ever spent on audio equipment. I also find the nearfield totally acceptable. I'm close to the performance, but the resolution and image are very nice (and transparent). Only serious down side is limited front to back depth. Otherwise the sound is very impressive -- and musically satisfying. Good luck, Kent

Wow.  You do sit close. 

How do you like your Omegas?  I've recently developed an interest in trying some single drivers.

[hartwerger]

I just wanted to thank everyone for the very thoughtful and in depth ideas.   I'm not sure what I'm going to do just yet.   I'm anything but motivated to dismantle and then reassemble my system.   Having a new room could be exciting, but I'd much rather kick my kids out of the house and keep the old room for myself.  Right now I've been walking through the basement brainstorming about how I can get the sofa off of the sidewall so its not in front of the speaker, if I place them along the short wall.   I know that Bobby Palkovic (the designer of the Merlins) generally does not recommend nearfield listening for his speakers, though I do agree with Bryan that they can sound pretty sweet in that position.    Even in my big room I have found the Merlins to sound better from about 7 1/2' than the 9' that  Bobby usually suggests (though I suspect that this has everything to do with my room and not the speakers).    The small room in the basement has so much junk (and shelves) that I should have plenty of diffusion.  It sounds like I would benefit from absorption particularly at the first reflection points, that is, if I go for short wall placement.   Anyway, I really appreciate all the ideas and everyone helping me think this out.  I think there is only one way to find out how its going to work and what works best and that's by trying it.  I'm sure I'll spend at least a few more weeks overanalyzing the situation, but eventually I'll end up experimenting.

[Alwayswantmore]

I'm doing nearfield in a small room - 12 x 13. Speakers are about 6' apart (center to center) out from the front wall 3 feet or so, and I sit 4-5 feet out from the front baffle of the speakers. The room was unlistenable prior to getting about $1,000 worth of GIK treatments. Now it sounds pretty darn good, especially considering the small size. Here's a link to my blog on the room and acoustical treatments... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.0

The treatments were probably the best bang for the buck I've ever spent on audio equipment. I also find the nearfield totally acceptable. I'm close to the performance, but the resolution and image are very nice (and transparent). Only serious down side is limited front to back depth. Otherwise the sound is very impressive -- and musically satisfying. Good luck, Kent

Wow.  You do sit close. 

How do you like your Omegas?  I've recently developed an interest in trying some single drivers.

BTW: I took a quick measurement this morning. My listing position is more like 3 - 4 feet away from the front baffle of the speakers. Single drivers have minimal phase issues, so even sitting close, the speakers are completely transparent.

I've not heard any of the new designs from smaller speaker companies, but I've heard quite a few expensive speakers from bigger names like Martin Logan, Wilson (Watt Puppies), B&W, Vandersteen (5s), Sonus Faber (about  $40K?), McIntosh (the big line arrays), Magnapans (variety of models, but not heard in recent years).

To be fair, these were heard in showrooms, which often translates into less than ideal placement and listening conditions. At least to my ears, the Omega's give little or no ground to the big guys at a fraction of the price. I would even go further and say that the Omega's sound about as true-to-life as anything I've heard.

Bear in mind I have the ACI sub, and IMO the Compact Hemps need a sub. I also believe that Omegas need a good sounding amp and front-end to bring out the best (my rig is detailed in the blog mentioned in my last post). I would imagine some solidstate amps might sound bright driving the highly detailed and revealing Hemps.

[doug s.]

I'm doing nearfield in a small room - 12 x 13. Speakers are about 6' apart (center to center) out from the front wall 3 feet or so, and I sit 4-5 feet out from the front baffle of the speakers. The room was unlistenable prior to getting about $1,000 worth of GIK treatments. Now it sounds pretty darn good, especially considering the small size. Here's a link to my blog on the room and acoustical treatments... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.0

The treatments were probably the best bang for the buck I've ever spent on audio equipment. I also find the nearfield totally acceptable. I'm close to the performance, but the resolution and image are very nice (and transparent). Only serious down side is limited front to back depth. Otherwise the sound is very impressive -- and musically satisfying. Good luck, Kent

double - or even triple - the thickness of sound absorption on the rear wall, & slide your chair back up against it & see if soundstage depth improves...  and, if you run a single mono sub, try centering it between the speakers, even trying a nearfield placement w/it.

doug s.

[Alwayswantmore]

I'm doing nearfield in a small room - 12 x 13. Speakers are about 6' apart (center to center) out from the front wall 3 feet or so, and I sit 4-5 feet out from the front baffle of the speakers. The room was unlistenable prior to getting about $1,000 worth of GIK treatments. Now it sounds pretty darn good, especially considering the small size. Here's a link to my blog on the room and acoustical treatments... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.0

The treatments were probably the best bang for the buck I've ever spent on audio equipment. I also find the nearfield totally acceptable. I'm close to the performance, but the resolution and image are very nice (and transparent). Only serious down side is limited front to back depth. Otherwise the sound is very impressive -- and musically satisfying. Good luck, Kent

double - or even triple - the thickness of sound absorption on the rear wall, & slide your chair back up against it & see if soundstage depth improves...  and, if you run a single mono sub, try centering it between the speakers, even trying a nearfield placement w/it.

doug s.

I have a 4' x 4' area of 6" GIK Monster Traps on back wall, and part of the same wall opens to a closet and hallway, reducing surface area to one degree or another. The sub is between the speakers slightly off center (off center based on recommendations from Bryan). I'll try moving the chair to the back wall and see what happens.

[doug s.]

I have a 4' x 4' area of 6" GIK Monster Traps on back wall, and part of the same wall opens to a closet and hallway, reducing surface area to one degree or another. The sub is between the speakers slightly off center (off center based on recommendations from Bryan). I'll try moving the chair to the back wall and see what happens.

in your pics, the traps on the back wall didn't look that thick...  if you get the listening position further away, you may also wanna tweak speaker placement/toe-in, etc.

re: sub, i have always found having a stereo pair, actively crossed over, gives best results.  the main speakers sound better, not having to see the lowest octaves; a good active x-over will be transparent enough not to degrade anything.  and, tho it may be counter-intuitive, even in a smaller room, two subs help - as they will load the room more evenly than a single sub...

if your single sub is off-center, is this so as it is not equidistant between side walls?  if so, you may wanna try having your omega's also slightly off-center - having one a few inches closer to its adjacent side wall than the other, will help smooth out room loading.  and, then the sub, centered between the speakers, will still be offset in the room.  my experience is a single sub, even if as low as 60hz, will still degrade soundstaging slightly, unless directly centered between speakers.  and, if you can place it nearfield, its level can be reduced, & possible poor room interactions can be ameliorated at the listening seat.

curious to  hear your results of moving a bit farther away from your speakers...

doug s.

[max190]

Alwayswantmore,
I thought I read that you put a table directly under your LCD, and then placed your spare 242 on top to cover the LCD.
Is that why you cannot center your sub?

I agree with Doug in moving your listening position back, and re-adjusting the toe of your spkrs... but, IMO to get more depth, you have to move your spkrs further away from the front wall.  Especially since you do not have any panels directly behind your spkrs.

hartwerger,
Sorry for the thread hijack.

[Alwayswantmore]

Alwayswantmore,
I thought I read that you put a table directly under your LCD, and then placed your spare 242 on top to cover the LCD.
Is that why you cannot center your sub?

I agree with Doug in moving your listening position back, and re-adjusting the toe of your spkrs... but, IMO to get more depth, you have to move your spkrs further away from the front wall.  Especially since you do not have any panels directly behind your spkrs.

hartwerger,
Sorry for the thread hijack.

To be fair to hartwerger, I'm moving my responses to the last couple posts to http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=57818.20

[satfrat]

My speakers are Merlin VSM-M, a two way floor standing speaker.  My current listening room is medium size 14x18.  Its a shared family room.  My problem is that room is becoming more of a family room than listening room.  In other words, my room is continuously occupied by someone other than me and I'm not able to listen to music when I want to (its not fair, especially since I pay the bills).   Therefore, I've been contemplating moving the listening room to a room in my basement. 

There are several problems with the basement room.  The first is its quite narrow.  The width is 12'.  The length is over 2x that, 25' maybe.  If I went short wall placement, I can see the speakers at 3' from each side wall and then 6' apart.  I can't really see long wall placement since I'd be forced to sit too close to the speakers.   

The second issue is that the room has a lot of junk that has no where else to go (getting rid of the stuff isn't a viable solution, at least not until the wife says it is).   If I go with short wall speaker placement, I should have enough room to get the speakers out from the wall behind them by 3 1/2' to 4'.  The problem is the junk in front of the speakers.   There is a very low sitting futon sofa that will have to sit in front of one of the speakers.  The sofa is agains the side wall.  It will not be blocking the woofer, but it must be, I assume, absorbing much of the forward dispersion of the speaker.  The only way to avoid this situation would be to get the speaker further away from the sidewall, but this would put the speakers too close together at under 5' apart, especially if I aimed for symetry by getting the other speaker at an equidistant from the other sidewall.  (Hope this is all making some sense.)

So, I guess the questions are:

1) for such a narrow room, is long wall placement out of the question (I think it is, but I'm keeping an open mind to all ideas).
2) do the speakers have to be equidistant from the sidewalls; should placement be symetrical.
3)  how awful would it be to have the sofa in front of the left speaker even though the sofa sits low enough to the ground that it would not be obstructing the woofer or tweeter. 
4) is 3' from the sidewalls enough or am I going to have noticeable sidewall reflection problems. 

Note:  since its a basement room, bass traps are possible, though I'd only be able to use them behind the speakers.  Also, I currently use mildly absorbent treatments such as the Room Tunes pack and the Eightnerve triangles in the corners in my current listening room and, of course, they be easily moveable to the basement room. 

Thanks in advance for any help, thoughts and ideas.

If you can treat the side walls, especially at the 1st reflection walls, I'd consider spreading them Merlins out 7' apart and having 2.5' from the side walls along with pulling them from the front wall at least 4'.  A sitting position of 7' would then serve you well for such a long room. You didn't mention the room's height but if it's a typical low ceiling, you might want to treat the 1st reflection point of the ceiling also. Diffusion panels for the front wall might also broaden the soundfield, I actually use diffusion panels for my 1st reflection side walls & ceiling to good effect (for me) in my small 11' x 17' x 7' room. I would have loved to been able to try out these Furutech Tuning Panels on my front wall but that's taken up by all my A/V equipment as my room does double duty.


Cheers,
Robin