[miklorsmith]

 

[KS]

I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.

Yes, and...speaker cable length and non-balanced RCA interconnect cable length matters.  Life is a series of compromises.

[launche]

I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.

Woudn't this be a reason to use such devices.  No place in the room is immune, some spots just better than others I imagine.

[darrenyeats]

I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that. Why spend thousands on support and tweaks when the equipment is being placed even nearer to the transducers than your ears? Go put your head where your equipment sits and play something loud and you'll hear what I mean.

Yes, and...speaker cable length and non-balanced RCA interconnect cable length matters.  Life is a series of compromises.

As I said my equipment is behind my seat so RCA length is not any different than normal.
Darren

[miklorsmith]

It doesn't cost a lot to experiment. I've found a combination of 'hard' and 'soft' isolation work well. By 'hard' I mean basic isolation spikes which work well especially if you place coins at the sharp end. I've found hard isolation tightens the bass but can leave the sound a bit clinical. By 'soft' I mean inner tubes or bubble wrap under a tile or board on which the spike/equipment rests. I've found this improves everything else. So a combination works for me with my current system.

And here's the kicker for me. A bigger improvement was made than with all the above by doing just one thing: moving the equipment stack away from the speakers (in my case behind the main listening position). I think putting your equipment near to the loudspeakers is a pretty crazy thing to do vibration-wise and yet 99.9% of set ups do exactly that.

Some good points here.  I've built some stuff myself for experimentation purposes - wood blocks with *gasp* plywood and glued-on cork (dual compound), also some cheap rollerblocks with those - attaching spoon bowls with large caliber lead shot as the roller.  Ziplock bags filled with sand are a different type of isolation.  I use cheap sorbothane circles under some of my gear as well.  If you find a strategy that works for you, going to a better level of execution via professional/commercial build might make sense.  I'm lucky to have a fully finished basement room with concrete floor, so floor transmission isn't a problem for me.

On the gear location, mine's pretty much dictated to me.  I agree that getting it away from speakers is a good idea if you can do it.

[audio-heaven]

looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me?????    this is an audio site    ill pray for you

This is an audio site not a religious one anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.

[darrenyeats]

Woudn't this be a reason to use such devices.  No place in the room is immune, some spots just better than others I imagine.

I didn't mean to imply that there was a position that was "immune" from vibration. But there's no need to imagine the difference. You can try it for yourself easily. Just place your head where your equipment is and play something loud, it's a ten second experiment. Personally I find the music significantly louder and more resonant there than at or behind the listening position, but you can report your own experience.

I don't know how different the result would be for dipoles where loudness is reduced to the sides of the speakers.
Darren

[James Tanner]

Hi All,

Thanks for all this input but I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on the 'physics' of these kinds of devices for me. Gee’s I still can’t figure out whether the ‘cone’ is sharp side up or down!

An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor?  (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat). 

So in the case of a speaker stand you would want the stand to act as a conduit to allow the energy to transfer to the larger floor mass as soon as possible. In the case of the speaker would the ‘cones’ on the bottom 'drain’ the energy from the speaker cabinet in an efficient way.  In other words would the spikes be the point of least resistance for the energy to dissipate through?

Now when it comes to large mass devices (mats, cork, wood blocks etc.) I assume their purpose is to absorb any vibration and dissipate it as heat within the mass?

The reason this all came up is I was reading an interview with the designer of Harbeth speakers and his opinion of why his cabinets utilize ‘tuned’ loading as opposed to ‘mass’ loading.

james

[darrenyeats]

An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor?  (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat). 

IME it depends on the floor. On concrete floors I've found it better to anchor the speaker as much as possible with a sturdy stand and possibly spikes into the floor. The concrete is able to absorb the energy and it stops there. The floor I have presently is a wooden floor that can vibrate. The floor can produce resonances and colouration so the game is about isolation of speaker and floor. So I use the same isolation scheme I described earlier of (platform plus) bubble wrap, board, spikes then speaker.

My explanation is not scientific but hopefully adds detail on what I think is happening.
Darren

[ashtarul]

BTW Harbeth are FABULOUS.
Ash

[miklorsmith]

I think the reasons/science depend on the application.  Specific to speakers, I imagine the answer would be different whether one had a bouncy wood floor vs. a concrete one.  Darren hinted at the different type of devices for isolating electronics - pointed cones are supposed to (I think) drain energy from the component (or speaker) to the surface underneath. Rollerblocks are intended to do completely the opposite - decouple the two entirely.  A sand bag would be looking to dissipate energy as heat as would the cheap bicycle innertube tweak.  I don't understand the science of this stuff but from the reading I've done, manufacturers are looking to address varying issues which is why there are so many different types of devices.

oops, I see Darren beat me to it.  

[THE_ANSWERS]

looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me?????    this is an audio site    ill pray for you

This is an audio site not a religious one anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.

"ill pray for you" was totally sarcastic, dude       yes, you can have improvement, im just saying to try the cheap method first    my other entry even stated that i have tried other methods that worked!!!!!!!!

[audio-heaven]

looks like you have lots of time on your hands so why dont you spend it talking about audio instead of me?????    this is an audio site    ill pray for you

This is an audio site not a religious one anyway I was just chatting to god on another forum and he said he doesn't believe in you either so I wouldn't waste your time praying Why is it that people who say they hear no improvement at all with these products always feel the need to tell others who can that they are being ripped off deluded or just crazy? Personally speaking I'm rather pleased I can hear the improvements that some of these products have on my system at home where double ABX blind testing is really not necessary, all that matters to me is that I am getting an improvement in sound quality that my ears can detect no one else's.

"ill pray for you" was totally sarcastic, dude       yes, you can have improvement, im just saying to try the cheap method first    my other entry even stated that i have tried other methods that worked!!!!!!!!

Well that's all right then I was being a little sarcastic myself "if you hadn't noticed" I also try the cheapo methods and have had some success with them, this is mainly because I don't have the cash but I do believe that a lot of supports - cones ect are massively overpriced, I know a certain amount of R&D goes into them but some of the prices they ask your money is better spent elsewhere IMO

[timind]

Very interesting as I've been considering changing my speaker's footings. A while ago I fabricated some outriggers for my speakers when two of the threaded inserts for the spikes gave out.




The outriggers made them more stable which to me is the point of spikes on carpeted floors. So now I'm thinking of finding some vibration control device to place between the metal bars and the speakers. What do you think? Would I be better off with a strip of foam type vibration damping material or get some type of platform and isolate that from the speakers?

BTW, the components in my system sit on slabs of slate which I feel is very inert.

[rabpaul]

Gee’s I still can’t figure out whether the ‘cone’ is sharp side up or down!

See this site for the answer http://www.tricell-ent.com/BDR.htm

An example of what I mean would be when I put my speakers on speaker stands or on floor spikes what exactly am I doing from a scientific standpoint. I assume the idea is to 'transfer' the energy from the speaker down to the floor spike and dissipate the energy into the larger mass of the floor?  (remember the energy has to go somewhere- transfer or dissipate as heat). 

So in the case of a speaker stand you would want the stand to act as a conduit to allow the energy to transfer to the larger floor mass as soon as possible. In the case of the speaker would the ‘cones’ on the bottom 'drain’ the energy from the speaker cabinet in an efficient way.  In other words would the spikes be the point of least resistance for the energy to dissipate through?

Apparently its more important to prevent a speaker from rocking, hence spikes serve first to anchor a speaker to carpets and only then to dissipate energy i.e coupling. Spikes can't be used on any other type of floor so they are either replaced with moulded rubber footers that screw on or the spikes sit on indented footers made from a variety of materials. Where the flooring is wooden you may need something else to prevent rocking such as a marble slabe and something to decouple the speaker from the floor or risk having the floor transmitting the energy back to the speaker.

I am of the opinion that unless your CDP or Transport is built like a tank e.g Wadia, you will benefit if some attention is paid to isolation and anti-vibration. I wish manufacturers would pay a little attention to these details. I can only think of Audio Aero who I believe provide BDR cones with their CDPs.

[miklorsmith]

I've read some reviews where effort was made to decouple the speaker from the floor.  I can't recall any where the effect was positive.  Of course, ymmv.

[BobRex]

Look at the latest issue of HiFi+.  They tried to different isolation systems with speakers with positive results. 

[darrenyeats]

I've read some reviews where effort was made to decouple the speaker from the floor.  I can't recall any where the effect was positive.  Of course, ymmv.

My POV is it depends on the floor. IMO concrete floors are much preferable...maybe all the reviewers had these?
Darren

[miklorsmith]

I honestly don't remember, it's been quite a while since I read them.  I wasn't trying to discourage experimentation, rather passing along the meager tidbits I had on tap.