[TONEPUB]

Hey troops.

As I'm sure you know, there are a number of conflicting opinions
about whether to cryo tubes or not.  Of course the folks that sell
you cryo'd tubes tell you its the best thing going.  And I must admit
the couple of times I've tried them, I did notice a bit more relaxed
and natural midrange for a little while.

However, after using cryo'd tubes in a test preamp that's been running
for about a year and a half now, non stop, I am noticing a much higher
than normal failure rate among cyro'd tubes.

Seems like they sound better, but fail faster.  A few friends I've talked
to about this have had the same experience.

What have you seen?  Very curious about this one.....

[dyohn]

Snakeoil hype.  Just my opinion, of course. 

[cryoparts]

Jeff,

Go check out the Decware forum and ask this question.  I did a batch of 100, or so, for the guys over there about a year, maybe a year and half ago.  If cryo does negatively impact the life of the tube, they should be a good test bed of subjects to ask.  

Of all the tubes (1000's) I have cryo'd, I've had no one tell me of premature failure.  I just finished a bunch for myself for all the headphone amps I have around here.  Burning eight of them in now.

There are a number of factors at play here as well, most important of which is who does the cryo treatment and their process/profile.  I don't think generalizations can be made due to everyone who does cryo uses a different profile.  There are only a few of us who own our own chambers and do audio gear and accessories on a regular basis.  Most cryo houses do industrial tooling and such, and sure they are more than happy to stick your tubes, or cables, or whatever in the chamber alongside endmills and drill bits and treat them with the "standard" profile.  Audio gear requires a little more TLC than tool steels.    

FYI--I do cryo, sell cryo'd parts and use cryo as a step in the manufacture of a lot of my items.  However, I don't sell cryo'd tubes and don't plan to.  So, take what I have to say with those facts in mind.

Here come the flames....  Every time I post about cryo...

Peace,

Lee

[TONEPUB]

Hey there,

No problem, that's why I'm ASKING about others experience.  Knowing how
tubes are these days, the couple I tried are definitely not a representative
sample...

[cryoparts]

When can we read about the Bentley?  Inquiring minds want to know!

Peace,

Lee

Hey there,

No problem, that's why I'm ASKING about others experience.  Knowing how
tubes are these days, the couple I tried are definitely not a representative
sample...

[jtwrace]

I will say that having much experience with Cryo a lot depends on the user.  There are a lot of people doing it that don't have the knowledge as well as the proper experiece.  Some of the chambers are what I call high priced sperm banks.  It's crazy what is out there when you are in it.  Of course, IMO.

I love when my stereo gear is cryo'd....especially my cables & tubes.

[satfrat]

Hey there,

No problem, that's why I'm ASKING about others experience.  Knowing how
tubes are these days, the couple I tried are definitely not a representative
sample...

Posted by: dyohn 

Snakeoil hype. Just my opinion, of course. 
   

The only experience I see from this post from dyohn is that of no experience except that of nonknowledge. Better off not saying anything IMHO. 

I have 6 tubes using low voltage that have been cryoed along with my 2 amplifiers for over 3 years now,,, no issues except for a quieter background which allows more of the audio signal to shine thru. This could be a result of the whole amplifier being cryoed tho and not just the tubes. Just my opinion from my experiences.

Cheers,
Robin

[kenreau]

Hey there,

No problem, that's why I'm ASKING about others experience.  Knowing how
tubes are these days, the couple I tried are definitely not a representative
sample...

Posted by: dyohn 

Snakeoil hype. Just my opinion, of course. 
   

The only experience I see from this post from dyohn is that of no experience except that of nonknowledge. Better off not saying anything IMHO. 

I have 6 tubes using low voltage that have been cryoed along with my 2 amplifiers for over 3 years now,,, no issues except for a quieter background which allows more of the audio signal to shine thru. This could be a result of the whole amplifier being cryoed tho and not just the tubes. Just my opinion from my experiences.

Cheers,
Robin

Robin,

I would like to hear more about "the whole amplifier being cryoed ".  Was this a full process, deep emersion, et al cryo treatment?  I've read of only a couple of components where this was implemented and I think they were dac's or cdp's.  It certainly sounds promising.  I've also been cautioned about all the issues of dis-similar parts, circuits, materials, etc in a hi-fi component going through the cryo process and not surviving the round trip - ie some parts getting destroyed going through the cycle.

Can you tell us more?  Cost vs benefits?  Special precautions taken? 

Thx,
Ken

[dyohn]

Posted by: dyohn 

Snakeoil hype. Just my opinion, of course. 
   

The only experience I see from this post from dyohn is that of no experience except that of nonknowledge. Better off not saying anything IMHO. 


Cheers,
Robin

That would be a large and erroneous assumption there, Robin.  I have tried and tested many products ranging from interconnects to fuses to triode tubes that have been subjected to cryogenic treatments of various types, and have never EVER detected nor measured any difference in performance whatsoever.  Well, except for the one tube that did not survive the process.  The placebo effect of expectations is a powerful thing in the human brain.

[TheChairGuy]

Dang, wish I knew the answer to the same question (I've bought both but never had controlled conditions to assess betterment of tube life).

Cost effectiveness for cryo tubes probably needs to be noted too....is it better to buy low noise & microphony tubes ($5 more for a lot of tube vendors like TubeDepot.com to do this) and maybe another $2.00 to match them....or pay much the same per tube for cryoing them.

Not sure - but grappling with some of the same questions that Jeff/TONEPUB raised....

(btw, Lee/cryoparts has cryo'ed an IC and speaker cables for me in the past - that were used and well known in their properties to me before.  There did seem to have been betterment to them after cryo conditioning.  For maybe $15 or $30 each that I paid for it, I figured it was cost effective (cost of IC's and SC's were north of $150 as I remember it).

But, that's another issue I suppose....

John

[cryoparts]

(btw, Lee/cryoparts has cryo'ed an IC and speaker cables for me in the past - that were used and well known in their properties to me before.  There did seem to have been betterment to them after cryo conditioning.  For maybe $15 or $30 each that I paid for it, I figured it was cost effective (cost of IC's and SC's were north of $150 as I remember it).
John

Thanks John, check is in the mail!   

Peace,

Lee

[Bill Allen]

Hello all,

               I have been working with Charles at Cryogenic's Intl in Scottsdale AZ over the past 3 years. Charles uses a computer controlled deep Cryo profile (-320 F) that was developed using scientific method under the direction of a retired scientist who worked directly with Albert Einstein. Compare that to the half baked methodology and gear used in most so-called Cryo Labs. With that being said, this is what I discovered over the past 3 years.

My initial curiosity was to Cryo tubes and cables, I have never experienced any failures, and improvement ranged from subtle to shocking.

"The overlying theme being the better the quality, the better the improvement"!

This observation fly’s in the face of the accepted Audiophile "law of diminishing return" with quality parts. Usually we spend large sums of money just to get minor improvements. Imagine with proper Cryo treatment you can achieve huge improvements with already outstanding gear. Lesser gear (material science) generally gave less improvement.

As I said, this was my biggest discovery in the past 3 years and it held true as I progressed to Cryoing “entire” components, all the way to trusting the process enough to Cryo my Kondo Ongaku. (Now that takes some balls my friend). Kondo's background was material science and he was the first person to exploit the exclusive use of annealed silver in audio amps. (I’m sure if Kondo was still alive, studied the methodology and benefits’ of proper Cryo treatment; he would have Charles build him a Cryo Tank for his own factory). After Cryo the Ongaku improved on every level but ultimately it was the sum of whole that really allows the benefit to be heard. At this point everything in my system had been Cryo treated, so by opening up the last restriction (if you can call a Kondo Ongaku a restriction) allowed the electron's to flow fully unrestricted. The end result simply sounds like "live" music. Relaxed, Open!

What I am saying here is:  if you are going to treat your amps, then by all means treat the input cables, power cable and wall outlet so you can really hear the benefit of the Cryo process of your amps. This is by far the lowest cost, largest gain transformation in hi-end audio.  Period. If you want to simply Cryo a tube or cable or low cost component you are missing my point. Take the system approach “Cryo Plunge” … you can thank me later.

As far as the negatives go, it really focuses on paint/lacquer peeling. In every case this was the result of "hand finishes” of metal surfaces, no doubt oil from people’s hands being painted over. (In some cases I could actually see the paint peeling in the shape of a human hand). Most components however have a factory finish and I have never seen factory paint or powder coat peel. I have also yet to see finish peel from a wood surface, but your mileage may vary, when in doubt simply remove faceplates and decorative wood. In the first year I also experienced some cracking of caps/resistors in two "low quality" severely overheated components. Audio Alchemy 1.1 DAC that had thousands of hours on it and another low cost preamp. I have to admit, I was a bit Cyro Shy after the early failures but I soldiered on with the Cryo Process to treat 50 other components with no further electronic issues.  Just the aforementioned hand paint peeling.


I think between improper Cyro methodology, low cost Cryo parts selections and non-system approach leads to the mixed results witnessed on the forums concerning Cryo. Fact is properly cryogenically treated high quality audio components experience large gains in audio performance. I took the risks and discovered the rewards. Now you can to.

http://www.cryogenicsinternational.com/

Bill Allen
www.baulsaudio.com

[cryoparts]

FYI--Positive Feedback did a series of interviews with three of us who specialize in the treatment of audio gear and parts:

Charles at Cryogenics International:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/cryo_international_interview.htm

Craig at Kryophysics:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/goffinterview.htm

And, me:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue22/weiland_cryo_interview.htm

As the poster above said, be careful who you select to do your cryo.  As I posted above, most cryo treatment houses are used to doing tool steels, and the like, so the computer controlled (which all reputable firms use) profile is set up for quite an aggressive "ramp down" and is not suitable for audio gear.

Peace,

Lee

[avahifi]

Much of our parts are stored in an unheated warehouse through the long cold Minnesota winters here.

Would it be fair then to suggest all our equipment is thus "cryo" treated. 

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[cryoparts]

Much of our parts are stored in an unheated warehouse through the long cold Minnesota winters here.

Would it be fair then to suggest all our equipment is thus "cryo" treated. 

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Ha!  I was born and raised up there, it gets dang cold!  I remember we had to plug our cars into some kind of heater cord that was wrapped aorund the radiator or block, or something, at night so the anti-freeze wouldn't freeze.  Don't miss that!   

In order to be considered DCT (deep cryogenic treatment), the temperature has to at least get under -285F, preferably between -300F and -320F.

Peace,

Lee

[Imperial]

Cryo freezing stuff has also come as far as FM Acoustics these days.
Their latest amp has a Power transformer that's been a trip to the ol' freezer.
And for a firm that makes amps expected to work for 20 years, one can only assume that they found a benefit in doing this.
I suppose I would have expected a pro firm to be among the last to do this.
But correct me if I'm wrong here. Huber is the first to do this among super amp makers... I think he is!
And if he chose it, I believe him! It must have worked!

---

On the failure rate of frozen tubes...
I have this to say:
- If the tube was prone to braking before... I think it will fail actually sooner after cryo than if it hadn't been cryo'd.
- An I think I can say why: Minuscule imperfection gets a "workout" during the freeze.
- Maybe some "freeze profiles" will be more benign than others, that could very well be.
Selecting and freezing only production lots that have few failure from the get go... could also be a factor for improving things.
I'm sure known "problematic" "lots" gets frozen to try to make them "better".

Also to remember:
As time goes by each supplier of tubes... of nos tubes one could say will have a slowly decreasing quality of their stock.
Why? 'cos they most likely sell the good stuff first, that will get them a good reputation and many customers, so when stock dwindles away, they at some point will have to work harder at the matching game to make good "pairs" and what have you of the nos tubes.
Then... if one freezes a batch, and then match them, maybe that will bring more tubes into the "good" zone.

The danger here, or what can be a danger... is that the odd batch or lot can now contain ... I say CAN contain statistically a maybe larger amount of tubes, who now could break down too early..

Imperial