[posternutbag2000]

I'm on the verge of adding a solid, dependable and upgradeable vinyl set-up to my current system and am inquiring for options..  Basically if you were to start over again and had a small but reasonable chunk of change (lets say $1-2k) what would you buy?

As a preface my system consists of a Welborne ultrapath bp (batter powered pre-amp) into a pair of Welborne DRD45 monoblocks which drives a pair of Omega Maxhemps (and a single Adire subwoofer)...No need to go through my digital front-end for this discussion.

I'm intrigued by the Zu/Denon-103 cartridge which is a lowish output  (0.4mv) MC cartridge so it looks like I'll need a decent phone-pre capable of sufficent gain (60db, correct?)...As a basic DIYer interested in building it if I can save some $$ and get better parts I'm considering the following for the phone pre:

Hagerman Piccolo and Cornet2 (http://www.hagtech.com)
DIYHiFiSupply Cole (http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_cole.htm)
Promitheus Audio MC/MM phone pre (http://www.promitheusaudio.com/phono.htm)

For the turntable, I'm thinking along the lines of the Rega, Music Hall or Pro-ject lines but only because these are the main ones I'm aware of...Please let me know if there are other solid budget tables I should consider...

So, please provide me some info or suggestions as I'm excited to finally start putting me hard-earned dollars towards vinyl!  Thanks in advance everyone...

Scott

[Wayner]

I'm thinking you'd like a Technics SL-1210 maybe. Direct drive will beat the pants off the Rega as far as fast and powerful start speed (like .3 seconds to full, constant power with plenty of torque. The tone arm on the SL-1210 is a bit better  than on the SL-1200. Put any cart you like on it. I happen to really like the Audio Technica AT440MLa MM cartridge. Tracking is delightful @ 1.5 grams and very well balanced in soundstage and frequency coverage. Lots of bang for the buck. Even if you get the SL-1200 and the AT cart, you'd only have about $600 in the whole thing.

Use the rest of the 2K to populate your vinyl collection!

There is my .02 cents.

Wayner  aa

[lcrim]

If I had to start getting a vinyl front end together, the first place I would go is to http://www.kabusa.com/ I would speak with or email Kevin and see what it would cost to get started with one of the Technics 12xx family of turntables.  Setup is easy and straightforward and all the adjustments work easily and logically.  You don't need to spend as much as you are budgeting.  If you opt for all the available mods you'll still be under $2000 and you won't ever need to upgrade.
I see Wayner already gave you a similar opinion.

[alphacourt]

I'll 3rd suggestion for a Technics SL1200/SL1210. As an ex-DJ i've been using these tables for over 20 years now. Great for playing. Great for listening.

[Miney]

Kevin's the man.

Here's a great article...

[ChairSpud]

I have the a Technics 1210 and a Rega but for a beginner, I'd also recommend the Technics SL-1200/1210. They sound great, are built like a tank, should last a lifetime, and are inexpensive. Cartridge mounting on the Technics is also far easier than on the Rega or the other turntables you mentioned.

Dave

[alphacourt]

They sound great, are built like a tank, should last a lifetime

Absolutely. I've had my current table for 8 years now. It's seen a lot of all night party action, and then some. If it could tell stories. And, apart from the (replacable) dust cover, it still looks mint.

[nrenter]

IMHO, until you are ready to spend the big-bucks on a table / arm (i.e. a Teres 260), go with the Technics. Most other "mid-priced" tables put you on the path to upgrade hell (VPI, Rega, etc.).

[jrtrent]

My listening experience with an SL1200 in my system is extremely limited, but I didn't find the experience to be musically rewarding.  It could be argued that I'm simply too used to the LP12/Ittok combination that the SL-1200 briefly replaced, but even a Rega P1 in the same system provided much greater musical involvement for me.  I still believe the current incarnation of the Rega P3 offers the best value per dollar turntable on the market (and is upgradeable with an outboard power supply), and comes with an arm of sufficient quality/rigidity to extract good performance from moving coil cartridges.

[ricmon]

I have a Pro-ject RM 9.1 with Sumiko Blackbird cart. and Speed box II.  For around $2,200.00 buck you wont be disappointed.  This set up never lets me down.  I still get goose bumps from some of my records that I listen to over and over.  For the money you get a solid mass loaded plith and excellent cart and most important speed control which you can't live without no matter which TT you settle on.

Ric

[royphil345]

Wow... What a switch to see so many people recommending the 1200 these days in this price-range!!!  I bought one several years ago and I've been satisfied ever since. I've owned a couple budget belt-drives that were supposed to be "better", but they both had speed issues and I don't even think the arm bearings were as good (highs were always overly bright and didn't sound accurate).  Caught heck any time I mentioned my Technics on an audio message board though... Looks like some people finally decided to actually listen to one before passing judgement... lol.

The Zu/Denon-103 would be a fine choice I'm sure. I would love to try one of those. Just keep in mind the cost of replacement or retipping down the line...  I'm on a pretty tight budget these days, so I've settled on using a standard DL-103 and I can afford to replace it as needed. I've found that the conical styli don't seem to last quite as long as other shapes. I almost gave up on the 103 and was experimenting with other cartridges until someone suggested I try loading it at 1Kohm. This really opened things up and it sounds so "right" now. Nothing else I have can top it in my system and I'm very content with it. However, I do not have the high-end aspirations of many on this board.

I wouldn't know what to recommend for a phono stage... I'm using a Jolida JD-9A. I like that it has a reasonable amount of tweak settings and the sound is very good with Electro Harmonix Gold Pins installed. The stock Chinese 12AX7s sound terrible and I wasn't happy with a couple other warmer sounding tubes that are often recommend for the JD-9 either. The EH have better detail and focus and they don't sound bright at all when the tonearm and everything else is set right.  I don't think the JD-9 could be beat for the price (by much anyway), but it's not perfect. I find it extremely "comfortable" to listen too. Far better than entry-level (more dynamic, better bass weight but not necessarily extension), but it's not the most detailed or revealing phono stage I've heard. If you go with a Technics, there would probably be room in your budget for something a little nicer.... a little more "high-end" or "precise" sounding. The Hagerman Piccolo and Cornet2 combo sounds very tempting, but any tweaking of loading would be a pain. I would probably tend to go with a MC phono stage that required no stepup and had some tweak settings to compliment the Zu/Denon. Particularly if I didn't have a lot of experience with vinyl... It would make experimenting and fine-tuning much easier. It wouldn't take you as long to get the best possible sound out of your vinyl rig.


EDIT:  Since you're interested in the The Zu/Denon-103, a Technics 1200 might really be what you're looking for. The tonearm has just enough mass to work well with a 103. Some people still use a heavier headshell to add mass when using a 103 on the Technics. At the same time, it's still considered medium mass and works reasonably well with just about any cartridge out there.

[woodsyi]

Wow... What a switch to see so many people recommending the 1200 these days in this price-range!!!

It's refreshing, isn't it?  I never had a chance to hear it but I trust it's good.  I am more traditional with belt/rim drives, LOMC carts and tube phono stages.  I like MC's better than MM's I have tried.  Got another one coming back from Soundsmith.  Good luck in your search and try to demo at your house if possible.  IMHO, Bellari is your weak link. 

[doug s.]

my first choice would be a wintage empire turntable, unsuspended, as it's a lot easier to mount an aftermarket arm on it, than a suspended empire.  second choice would be an sl1200...

i would awoid any cartridge w/an elliptical or spherical stylus, which would rule out the denon dl103 for me, i don't care if it sounds good.  but, ymmv...

doug s.

[jmpiwonka]

everyone seems to like the technics1200 series.
i happened to find an Empire 208 with no arm.
i got a sumiko arm to fit it and i have a grado silver on it.
a little mortite on the bottom of the platter and some in the base.
i'm pretty damn happy with it. i lowered the vta just a bit last night and the bass and midrange really seemed to come out.

i have an old NAD 1020-b preamp with adcom gfa-1a power amp.
i'm thinking i'm gonna get a tube preamp kit to build now.

fwiw i had a rega planar3 with the 300 arm. the empire blows it away.

[2bigears]

i can speak on two tt set-ups i have in-house.the Tech 1210 30th Anniversary table with a Benz micro hi and a Rega P9 with a Dyna xx2. i really have not much sit time with either (sold all my amps) but i can say this,that little guy against a tt 6x the cost kicks some serous ass.money well spent for first time buyer.and with the fluid damper KAB sells,it's a big step up too.now back to buying the next amp....

[Marcos]

I just got back into vinyl about 2 years ago and I started with a Music Hall MMF-5, which has since been upgraded to the 5.1, I believe.  I took it home, plugged it in and put on a Nora Jones record, which sounded better than the 10K CD player I was using at the time.  This is what convinced me that vinyl was worth pursuing.  If I were in your position, I would pick up a Rega P3, as Regas always sell quickly if you decide to upgrade, whereas, you might have somewhat more trouble selling a Music Hall.  I have since upgraded to a Linn with no regrets. 

For a phono stage, I personally have had good luck with the Pro-jects.  Very nice stuff in all the price ranges.  I'm currently using the new Tube Box II SE and it seems fine.  For a cart, I think the Goldring Eroica MC ($500) is really nice for the money.  Nicer than the Regas, IMO.  You should be able to do the P3/Eroica/tube box II for well under 2K and I think you'll like it.

[JackD201]

My main rig is an HRX but I still have 2 Technics 1210M5Gs with Ortofon Concorde Pros mounted.  The 1200 family is a great place to start and is also a great place to stop

Upgrades from KAB or even a change in arm with the Origin Live kit won't leave you stuck either. There are also many tweaks like playing with different mats.

Can't go wrong with an SL.

[doug s.]

here's a nice deck on ebay; the seller is "upgrading", but will end up w/performance not as good, imo.     empire 208 w/rb300 arm:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290260500186


doug s.

[Airborn]

I'll pile on the Technics 1200 series bandwagon here.  I also just got into vinyl a year or so ago after a 2 decade lapse 
I started very low end with an Audio Technica belt drive and AT 3600 cart and even that set up sounded better than my CD player!  So I moved up to the Goldring 1.2 w/RB-250 tonearm, and what an improvement   Then I found a vintage Dual 601 belt drive which I bought just for the included Shure V-15 III cartridge.  This was my best cartridge and really opened my eyes to what a good cartridge could sound like, once I replaced the worn out stylus with an LP Gear replacement.  Despite all these moves, I still felt something was not optimal and thought maybe speed control was it.

So I just recently got a Technics SL-1210 and am using the AT 440 MLa cartridge and couldn't be happier.  All my vinyl sounds terrific, set up is so easy compared to the Rega tonearm and the picky Dual/Shure combo, especially the adjustable VTA and easily swapable headshell.  Plus there is a built in upgrade path through Kevin at KAB USA which includes tonearm fluid damper, upgrade tonearm wiring, threaded record clamp, out board power supply and multiple other tweaks available from others, like isolation footers, turntable mats, upgrade headshells, etc., etc.  Just check the audio message boards and you will find dozens of possible ways to improve the Technics.  Finally, as mentioned above, the technics tonearm will likely work well with the Zu Denon.  Given your budget, I don't see how you can do better unless you buy used, which is always dodgy with a turntable.

PS- I forgot to recommend a phono stage.  I am using a Cambridge Audio 640P, but don't think it has enough gain for the Zu Denon.  It is great for MM, however, at a very reasonable price.

[TheChairGuy]

airborne,

I think you have the penultimate budget set-up there....SL-1200 / AT440MLa cartridge / Cambridge 640p.  You really thought the exercise thru man...good going 

Hey, not that your chosen path is the only way to develop a high-quality and affordable set-up...but, what you have is so good and cost effective that it's quite difficult to beat at equivalent costs with other makers.

And, as you mentioned, you can ramp up the Technics to still higher levels of performance thru KABUSA.

You got a big bite of the whole enchilada there and didn't bankrupt yourself in the process 

One thing not spoken alot of with the Technics is the outsized benefit one has in ditching the feet on it.  4 cheap brass toes $20-25 on ebay or Parts Express) pointed headlong into a thick block of maple (or choose whatever platform you want) bypassing the stock feet was amazingly beneficial.  Certainly more beneficial than a likewise $100 change in cartridges.

If I had a stock SL-1200....I'd buy the brass toes, maple block (make a Best offer to Dawn of about 10% less than asking to save a bit more....http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A_W0QQitemZ110289786947QQihZ001QQcategoryZ46282QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem) and the $150.00 silicone oil trough from KAB and seriously tick up performance at modest prices.

As highly as I think of the $250.00 outboard power supply and $50 strobe disabler is...I think roughly equal step-up money spent on the toes, maple block and silicone trough (I made home brew troughs on prior JVC decks that floored me on how important it is....noise of a variety sorts just vanished after installing it - particularly huge if you use Grado's) is money better spent.

In new decks, it is just hard to beat the Technics for outright value at the $500-$600 these fetch I feel.

Man, vinyl is truly a rewarding software format 

John