A bright system and some food for thought

pgastone · « **on:** 27 Jul 2008, 02:48 am »

It's been a quite a while since I last posted but I need the circle's exprtise.

I've had to give up my home office/listening room to the arrival of a new family member- I have now relocated to the library and since then my system sounds a little too bright and this is the one negative attribute I have always tried to avoid as I am particularly sensitive to it- the irony of it all!

Anyway, my speakers are placed in respective corners of the library with french glass doors between them and I suspect they are in large part the culprits for why the treble sounds a little edgy- unfortunately I cannot use any type of room treatment.

The room is 20ft long by 11ft wide and the speakers are placed on th far end of room some ft apart and the listening position about 7-8ft away. The system itself consists of:

ZU Druids + Mini Method sub
Mastersound Compact 845 SET integrated; this replaced a Cayin 50t which I still own.
Musical Fidelity X-Ray v3 cd player + X-10 v3 tube buffer
Mitchell Hydraulic Reference tuntable with SME 3009 tonearm and Sumiko Bluepoint Special Evo III
Bellari Phono
Cables are all Paul Speltz anticables

Since I am reluctant to start swapping out components as the treble brightness occured both with the Cayin and the Mastersound, to some degree confirming that at least part of the problem lies with the room itself, I am considering adding a preamp (for which the Mastersound has an input).
In order to deal with the treble edginess, I was looking for a full function preamp with tone controls (yes yes I know, heresy!) and here is where thigns got interesting- there almost no such preamps left in the market.
I do want a remote control because of the distance between the system and the listening position and I discovered there are very few choices- most notably I looked at Mcintosh (C45, C46, C2200, and C220), Van Alstine, Rotel, and Arcam (though I have discarded the latter 2 as in numerous instances I have read that they tend a little to the bright side which is the very problem I am trying to overcome).

The point is that I was surprised- very surprised. In the very understandable pursuit of sonic purity, ie reducing as much as possible any electronic components that may interfere with the signal, I fear high fidelity may have taken a wrong turn.
Room interaction is a fact of life and in most cases our systems have to perform in real world environments, not in dedicated hifi listening rooms that can be treated appropriately.
Not only, but as a fairly frequent concert goer (I say that but it's been over a year since I have visited Carnagie Hall or Lincoln Center) half the time the recordings themselves are far from neutral.
The more I pondered this issue as I agonize over what to do to solve my specific problem, the less it makes sense to me- yes, hi-end under ideal circumstances is just fabulous but ideal circumstances are not quite common enough to reasonably make me think that the industry has possibly gone too far in one direction.
Furthermore, what sounds good in one room might not sound as good in a different one and a minimum amount flexibility even at the cost of a little sonic purity is probably a decent trade-off assuming one likes the overall sound reproduction of the underlying components.

In essence I am left with either going for digital room correction/equilization, which is indeed a viable possibility but quite a complicated one, or a handful (literally) of preamps equipped with tone controls just to pull back the treble a tad.

In any event, just thought this was an interesting issue and a good way to ask you all what you think I should do- any thoughts in general as a point of discussion or specifically on the preamps I mentioned above would be very very helpful.

PLG

topround · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 03:00 am »

I was once setup in my sunroom which is 3/4 glass. It hurt man

I wanted it to work but it being 10 by 20 only made it worse, moving in another room( to my wifes chagrin) made it all work out for me.
So your dilemma is a tough one.
Looking at your equipment it would seem that brightness would not be a problem.
I know one of the room treatment companies was working on a curtain. That might help with the french doors, especially if the curtain can be raised and lowered like blinds.
mike

pgastone · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 03:15 am »

Yes, it's a tough call- don't get me wrong- it all sounds good but that treble after while gets to me- I would look into the curtains but it will never fly if you get my drift- a good preamp with tone controls seems to me a possible solution also because it would allow for other room adjustments in the future if e need them- what do you think?

topround · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 03:21 am »

I have a pas 3 dynaco preamp, of course some work went into it, including taking the tone controls out of the circuit, but you could find them cheap, and they sound wonderful, if you lived near me( NJ)I would let you try it. And it has tone controls.
Mike

kbuzz3 · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 03:41 pm »

As one who is forced into using a bright room "I feel your pain." Here are my random thoughts. Do whatever you can or spouse will allow in trying to correct the room first. This is because your equip does not, by reputation lean towards the bright side. See about curtains, wall panels, 8th nerve products, marigo room dots etc. Experiment....experiment and experiment, you can swap your system for ever and if the room is bright, your system will be bright. ASC will even make room panels with your pictures if you want.

I might get crucified here, but If one has limited room options they have no choice but to use room correction or tone controls. I have not experimented with room correction but have used tone controls. This again is a matter of personal preference, and as im sure will be chided in by another poster, transparency will suffer. OTHO, it might solve your problem. I have used a number of vintage pres with tone controls to some relief from brightness. You may want to pick up a beaten up fisher or pilot or mac as a low cost experiment to see if it suits you before you invest. You may be surprised and may like what you hear. Unlike others i like some things the vintage pres give you,,,tone, palpability, musicality, coloration what ever you want to call. If you like this route, you can them have a good unit refurbed.

You may also want to keep hunting for a new pre with tube controls. Im sure there are custom options as well. I think music reference and mac makes tone controlled pres but i have not heard them.

Ill bet the person behind mapletree might be able to make a unit with tone controls also....

Keep us in the loop. Those of us trapped in the bright room do sympathize with you.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 03:50 pm »

Aren't tone controls a violation of Article XI, Paragraph 3 of the Audiophile Handbook?

How about a folding screen wall made of 703 covered in a room-decor matching fabric you can put up for listening and fold and hide in the corner when not? Want me to make you one?

jon_010101 · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 04:02 pm »

No shame in using tone controls. Rooms aren't the only reason they are useful: Not all albums are mastered with a reasonable or realistic tonal balance, sad but true. Just don't get too obsessive over pursuing a flat sound - pick a setting and have confidence in it.

Lancelot · « **Reply #7 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 05:19 pm »

I, too, have decided that the subtle use of tone controls to improve the sound outweighs any loss of transparency. There are likely other solutions but are often expensive, time consuming or visually intrusive ( most room treatments).

If you can afford a McIntosh that would seem a great choice. I use an Anthem TLP 1 ( because I can't afford a Mac) with a Bryston 3B SST to very good effect.

In an audiophile world that uses tubes,tweaks and various cable to alter tonal qualities ( not I have a problem with that) , it seems using tone controls should fit right in.

kbuzz3 · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 05:50 pm »

This might be a good opp. to put up a sticky listing pre amps with tone controls.

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #9 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 07:09 pm »

Roger at Music Reference does make custom EQ's. Give him a call and see if he can help.

Since you can't use traditional room treatments maybe you can find freestanding ones to place right behind the speaker. They would limit the amount of sound hitting your back window (which you suspect is the problem, right?) and visually might not be any more noticeable than your speakers themselves. Not ideal, I know, but neither is your situation.

Double Ugly · « **Reply #10 on:** 27 Jul 2008, 07:32 pm »

Quote from: kbuzz3 on 27 Jul 2008, 05:50 pm

This might be a good opp. to put up a sticky listing pre amps with tone controls.

Could be.

If someone wants to start a thread, I'll make it a sticky if participation warrants.

sbrtoy · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 07:47 pm »

I have spent some time listening to the Vincent integrateds with tone controls that can be switched in or out of the signal path. I cannot say I can reliably hear a difference whether they are in or out of the loop. As always YMMV...

How about treatments on the ceiling to deaden the room some?

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 08:17 pm »

If the glass doors are bouncing around all kinds of high frequency sound, would it work to bring your speakers into the room? You have a lot of room with 20' length. I am assuming turning the room around to have the doors at the other end is out of the equation?

miklorsmith · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 08:33 pm »

It would be helpful to know what range the brightness resides in. I think most folks equate brightness with upper treble but to me it's usually in the hearing-acute presence band (2 - 5 k or so). If it turns out to be a narrow band you may be able to tailor a smaller fix that will still do what you want acoustically.

I owned the Druids and they are not bright speakers on their own.

jrebman · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 08:36 pm »

George Wright of Wrightsound has at least one preamp with defeatable tone controls. Don't remember which model offhand.

-- Jim

BobM · « **Reply #15 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 08:53 pm »

you need som WAF approved room treatments, perhaps curtains or blindes or something similar. I would also suggest trying some felt around the tweeter to tame any reflections off the baffle and reduce diffraction. Damp that room down as much as you can, rugs on the floor, something absorptive behind the listening spot, and such. Turn the speakers in so they are crossing in front of your listening spot, that could help as well.

It's not ideal but with a little creative thinking you may make things a little closer to "tamed" than they are now.

Good luck,
Bob

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Jul 2008, 11:17 pm »

Stone- I thought about felt around your tweeters, too, when I first read your post but didn't want to ingratiate myself (hoped you would find me on your own, I suppose). I make tweeter surrounds from pure wool and custom fit to speakers. Removing reflection or diffraction from your baffles will give you a truer soundscape and more clarity to your sound. Brightness or roughness is often not the fault of the driver, actually, but the fault of interaction with our speaker baffles. The room comes later. Off axis frequency response is improved above your midrange also. A smoother curve results and it is down in level a few db. You can see some customer and industry comments along with pricing and a couple of examples and more info by clicking on the green ball underneath my avatar. A bunch of guys here are using this with pleasing results I think I can say. Cheers.

rockadanny · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Jul 2008, 01:32 am »

Agree with jimgoulding. I got a pair from him and it helped with brightness/harshness issues. And a bargain as well.

topround · « **Reply #18 on:** 29 Jul 2008, 01:51 am »

I agree, I had a pair of Jims surrounds on a pair of speakers and it helped with the harshness and improved imaging. If it doesn't help with the brightness issue it will help your imaging

cheap too!

pgastone · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jul 2008, 01:32 am »

First of all I really need to thank all of you for the help....this is just great.
Sorry it's taken so long to answer but work...anyway, you know.
Also I am glad that at least my rantings on tone controls are not completely out to lunch.

Ok so here's my dilemma- should I just go for the jugular and get something like a Mac c220 OR try something vintage, but good, and see if it works to consider making a bigger investment later?
The reason I ask is that I don't know my way around "vintage, but good"
I started doing a bit of research and I was looking at ebay to see what's floating around- I am going purely on instinct here but anybody know much about:
Accuphase C200
Dynaco PAT 5

I am also going to look into some of your other suggestions vincent, wrightsound etc

Jimdgoulding- checked out your site- very interesting- would this work for a single driver speaker like the druids?