Khartago (new not so fine pics)

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jackman

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #20 on: 15 Nov 2003, 06:48 am »
Edited for stupidity.  Please return to your regular scheduled programs... :?

byteme

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #21 on: 15 Nov 2003, 01:25 pm »
Quote from: jackman
Mark,
Shouldn't an amp that puts out 100 wpc into 8 ohms put out 200 into a 4 ohm load?  That is, unless it has a limp-wristed power supply?  I thought all good amps doubled power at half the ohms and were stable at low ohm ratings.  Then again, I could be buying into the hype of companies who build powerful amps.  Please advise.

Jman
Just gotta keep it up huh?  From what I understand the doubling of power as speaker ohms are cut in half is an attribute of a pure class A amp.  It is more of a design choice and a monetary choice on the part of the manufacturer to provide absolute doubling all the way down the range.  Most amps are class a/ab which means they are class a up to a certain wattage and after that point run in ab or class b mode.  Power doesn't double as ohms halve in those cases.

It is also my understanding that while it does have something to do with power supply there are other design features which are required for class A.  It is prohibitively expensive in most cases but build a very high power TRUE class A amplifier.

And that's all I've got to say about that...

rosconey

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #22 on: 15 Nov 2003, 04:30 pm »
he is a pud  and simple minded one at that :mrgreen:

jackman

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #23 on: 15 Nov 2003, 04:32 pm »
Quote
he is a pud and simple minded one at that


Agreed!  Please add fat and stupid to the list!

Sincerely,
Jack's wife

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #24 on: 15 Nov 2003, 04:53 pm »
Jackman -
I am also curious about the max output capability of the Khartago.  I would like to know if it has at least has as much into 4 ohms as it's 8 ohm rating.  Now here's why.  

In response to your question, an amp is capable of putting out so many watts at a given impedance, and will not put out as much into higher or lower impedances.  If an amp "doubles down" into 4 ohms, then it is designed for 4 ohms, and is only half as efficient into an 8 ohm load.

If an amp puts out 100 watts into 8, 200 watts into 4, and 400 watts into 2, then it is a 400 watt amp.  It is not 100 watts.  It also does not "double down".  The fact is that it "halves up", so if you have a high impedance speaker, then you are paying for a 400 watt amp, and you are only using 25% of it.  

The Stratos is good for a max output of ~185 wpc RMS.  It targets a lower impedance than 8 ohms clearly, since its rated at 150 into 8.  With my 5 ohm speakers, its probably like having around 170 wpc RMS.  What I was bringing out about what's important also; some amps don't control drivers as well, an area where I feel the Stratos excels.  I get a sense of having at least as much power as I can use, if not more.  There are amplifiers that produce 400 wpc that do not manhandle my speakers as well.  Its a great amp if a person needs the sense of power they get from a well designed product, which IMHO is so much more important than total wattage output.  

If you have an SPL meter, I urge you to try and see how many watts you actually push your amplifier to.  Using the Rotel RB 1090, which is 380 wpc into 8, and somthing like 700 wpc into 4, and I have a 5 ohm speaker, so I'm looking at around 600 wpc.  That amp cannot make my speaker go louder than my 80 wpc Denon, which produces 140 wpc into 4, or I would guess around 125 wpc into 5.  

Now the SPL meter.  With one speaker playing, I should get 87.5 dB SPL with 1 watt of electrical power.  The woofer itself will travel to around 18 dB over that, and then its done - it can't travel any farther.  18 dB over the 1 watt rating means double it 6 times -
For ONE speaker:
1 wpc  - 87.5
2 wpc - 90.5
4 wpc - 93.5
8 wpc - 96.5
16 wpc - 99.5
32 wpc - 102.5
64 wpc - 105.5
(And add 3 dB for 2 speakers playing at the same time).  Both speakers playing, I'm done at 108 dB - there is no amplifier in the world that goes farther than that - period.  Not with my speakers.

So the truth is, the Denon gives me 108 dB in my livingroom, because it has enough power to do so.  So does the Stratos, so does my roomies old Sony receiver, so does a NAD C370, so does the Rotel RB 1090, a Heathkit, a Sunfire, a Bryston, a Carver, etc.  They're all done giving me power right there, at about 64 wpc PEAK, or about 6.4 wpc continuous (at 10 dB less than peak - typical).  Oh yes, those peaks are also quite temporary and so they could subsist on storage, which brings us back to the continuous, or 6.4 watts per channel, power consumption.

There just aren't enough good guys in the world left, it seems, who know that a 40 watt amp can blow your windows out.  I learned that from my electronics teacher in high school - coming from back in his day.  Meanwhile, the marketplace is a frenzy, and electronics dudes who are also just loony tunes over massive power supplies abound.  Out of their sights - they may never know.  Another really telling tale here - the Rotel.  I'm getting 600 watts here.  Will I ever see it?  No!  But thats what it delivers based upon its parts and design.  From the standpoint of my needs this is all quite incidental.

The next matter that comes to mind - what does it sound like?  And I would like to assure you that this is the only remaining criteria.  The sense of power I get with the Stratos with its speed and control is the greatest of all of these.  Maybe it's the right amount of feedback, who knows exactly why, attribute this to its balance, topology, design.

It's also an efficient piece of equipment.  It doesn't meet those outlandish marketing requirements, as I would call them, to "double down" to 1 ohm.  The only people who can conceivably use what those kinds of amps are capable of (which IMHO doesn't exist) are people with really outlandish speakers, because these amps are incredibly inefficient with real world loads.  And, there's no stipulation that they don't sound like crap.  :wink:  Actually, all they're really saying is, "more than enough watts into any load you've got or will ever get", and they have to build 1000 watt amplifiers to back up their claims, and meet the ignorant market smelling like roses.  While I will never use a 1000 watt amplifier, I will try not to hold the inefficiency of the design against them, because it may also sound great or perform really well.  

Stay aware of accolades for amps that don't "double down", because it is ignorance in the consumer marketplace that cries "Witch!" without a good platform to stand on.  Next, they'll say it has to float.  :lol:

Last point I can think of.  All the SPL levels discussed will cause hearing loss, and you'll know about that when you get older, if you want to listen at these kinds of levels for extended periods.   Please check the OHA charts. Thx.

jackman

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #25 on: 15 Nov 2003, 05:32 pm »
Mark,
Very good post.  I have learned a lot reading your comments.  Thank you.

J

satfrat

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #26 on: 15 Nov 2003, 05:56 pm »
Quote from: jackman
Mark,
Very good post.  I have learned a lot reading your comments.  Thank you.

J
                          I too thank you for your informative post Mark, it's value was worth much more than 2¢. :D Regards, Robin

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #27 on: 15 Nov 2003, 08:42 pm »
Perhaps got lost in all the typing...  Hence the original question, "How does the Khartago fare with a 2 ohm load?"  I'm told it does so very well, so I'm already getting an idea of the khartago with 4 ohms - methinks "like a pig in poop".   Well, to the extent of the poop pile, it's a little smaller than a Stratos.  

And peaks can get a little crazy.  Pushing the drivers to max with some of these scanspeak 8545s, for example, we're talking 3/4" of linear travel - that's quite a damned lot.  I'd start to question the clarity of the Khartago on max output there (like with a pair of Loreleis, for example), but I have no idea.  I know the 8545s stay straight easier than some other midwoofers I know.  

So, what does happen with a khartago and a pair of Loreleis?  Klaus, have you tried that?

JLM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #28 on: 20 Nov 2003, 12:54 pm »
I've found that "average" audiophiles listen to an average 80 dB sound pressure level.  That takes less than 1 watt of power.

But.....

Music has peaks of 20 - 30 dB that requires 100 - 1,000 times as much power.  Symphonic peaks run around 104 dB.  Examples:

Two 85 dB/w/m, 8 ohm speakers in an typical 2,500 cu. ft. residental furnished room will provide roughly 85 dB at one watt per channel.  To reach 104 dB you must add 19 dB of gain which is 90 watts per channel.

Two 90 dB/w/m, 8 ohm speakers in an typical 2,500 cu. ft. residental furnished room will provide roughly 90 dB at one watt per channel.  To reach 104 dB you must add 14 dB of gain which is 30 watts per channel.

Two 95 dB/w/m, 8 ohm speakers in an typical 2,500 cu. ft. residental furnished room will provide roughly 95 dB at one watt per channel.  To reach 104 dB you must add 9 dB of gain which is 8 watts per channel.

Therefore 100 wpc should be sufficient for most customers.  Note also that the difference between 110 and 150 watts is 1 dB (the smallest different in sound pressure level that can be heard).  If this amp is essentially the same as the Statos as Klaus states, it is a very practical alternative and should be a very useful product.

James Tg

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #29 on: 20 Nov 2003, 02:13 pm »
To me, SPL is not an issue, but the quality is.  I have Mono Block and Seteo Stratos at home, and I do hear the difference.  It does not mean Stratos is a bad product.  On the contract, I believe it is the best product in its price range I have ever heard.

I have not got a chance to audition Khartago so far, and I would like to if I have a chance and write a review for it.  Accouding to Klaus' description, the Khartago has a smaller transformer and less expensive case.  To my opinion, Stratos' case is an over-engineered product, and it costs more than that of Khartage.  So, the Khartage is a good sultion to many people who cannot afford high end price but want to tast it.

I think Khartago will handle most speakers into reasonable SPL.  Again, music is not quantity but quality (Klause likes to use the word "synergy").  I do recommend it without reservation.  With Odyssey's return policy, it is a no brainer.  Again, if you do NOT think it has has enough power to handle front speaks, you can put it for rear speakers of your HT, and buy Mono Block or Stratos for your front speakers.  I have auditioned many amps.  Finally I bought Odyssey amps to cover my entire 7 channels HT, and have no regret at all.   My recommendation is get it and enjoy it.  You wont' regret it.

James Tang

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #30 on: 20 Nov 2003, 03:13 pm »
JLM - well, that's one way to put it, but I would call that 20 - 30 dB of dynamic range, but not "peaks".  Yes, there will be a range that great with classical, and in rare cases, up to 40 dB of it, but the bare-bones definition of a peak is a transient, a point where the SPL measured with a fast meter is X amount greater than the SPL measured with a slow, or averaging meter, at the same moment.  10 dB is a commonly accepted range of average to peak output, which at that moment is the difference between 10 watts and 100 watts.  Over the course of an entire orchestral piece, I agree, the dynamic range will be much greater.  Also interesting to again note - I don't guess these sharp transients as having to go all the way back to the power supply, but tapping the caps.  Any good amplifier will produce double it's own rating for at least a short time, if not more.  The question then is how does it recover - how balanced in the act of doing so.  My Stratos never gave me the impression that it was breaking a sweat, or faltering in its consistency.  And that at the point where the speaker would give out - I mean I could push it to where the sound was getting treble-heavy, indicating to me that I had entered driver compression on the woofer (and probably not far from melting the tweeter coil).

I agree with you, James, about the difference between 110 and 150 in and of itself aint much to write home about, and relative to this design is going to have 100 times the importance.  If someone is having to push the Stratos for all it's worth, then perhaps the Khartago would present an issue.  All in all, I'd rather first guess the Khartago to be a Stratos-killer.  :wink:  Since it's the same topology/design (yes, not just the same mfr), I can only imagine good things about it.  I've already recommended a call to Klaus to someone looking at the Parasound Halo gear, and I haven't even listened to the Khartago.  Darn, if I wasn't so easy, maybe Klaus could send me a khartago/etesian for auditioning.   :P

Eduardo AAVM

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #31 on: 20 Nov 2003, 04:58 pm »
I just can say that Khartago sounds incredible, it has been in three days row improvement, really sounds good, and at very good levels I am using 89dB/w/m sensitivity speakers and the sound fill very nice a small room, the best part is that sound is vivid, musical, dynamical.

pugs

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #32 on: 20 Nov 2003, 06:14 pm »
Quote from: Eduardo AAVM
I just can say that Khartago sounds incredible, it has been in three days row improvement, really sounds good, and at very good levels I am using 89dB/w/m sensitivity speakers and the sound fill very nice a small room, the best part is that sound is vivid, musical, dynamical.


Can you please compare the sound qualities to the Stratos?

Thanks

Dunedain

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #33 on: 20 Nov 2003, 06:45 pm »
Many good points have been made in this thread and it's true that most people are not aware
of how very few watts are actually required to get to typical listening levels.

I would point out, though, that if one is using his speakers for DVD movies, as well as music,
then the required power for the speakers can go really high.

For example, if you want to play a DVD movie at full Dolby reference volume, you have to
be able to deliver peaks of 105dB at the listening position.  You lose 6dB for ever doubling
of the distance past the standard 3 feet (1 meter) measuring distance for sensitivity.

If you are far enough back, you can drop 12dB.  So the speaker would actually have to produce
117 dB peaks to achieve 105 dB at the listening position, now see what the power requirements are!

But fortunately you can knock off 3 dB, since you have two speakers working together to
produce that volume, and maybe a couple more from room gain.  But that's still 112 dB.
Many speakers can't produce this sort of volume, so it's a moot point.  But some can,
just make sure the amp can deliver what's needed if you want to go that loud and have
speakers that can handle it.

But as Klaus has pointed out, the ability to deliver current can overcome what appear to be
wattage shortages on paper.  :)

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #34 on: 20 Nov 2003, 08:55 pm »
Quote
You lose 6dB for ever doubling of the distance past the standard 3 feet (1 meter) measuring distance for sensitivity.


I can show you a horn loaded sub that when putting out 100 dB at 3 feet is throwing 98 dB at 100 feet!  We're going to see all kinds of of variation on this, depending on the speaker design.  There is also interaction with the room, as opposed to an anechoic chamber, a big field, or floating in space.  Some speakers throw the SPL farther than others.  And when the speakers being used "fill the room", they just fill it, and when they don't, you get more speakers.

Check the 'General Description' for the VR-10.  94 dB efficiency, running in a ballroom the size of a gymnasium.  No doubt these little fellahs can be driven nicely with a 50 watt amp.   :D
http://www.vonschweikert.com/vrline/VR-10W.HTM

Quote
...the speaker would actually have to produce 117 dB peaks to achieve 105 dB at the listening position, now see what the power requirements are!


My speakers won't give me 117 dB at 3 inches!  Aint nobodies amp gonna put humpty dumpty back together on that one.   :wink:  I mean, I don't see it as being the amp's responsibility to compensate for the combination of speakers, desired SPL, and room size.

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #35 on: 20 Nov 2003, 10:06 pm »
Great note after 3 days, Ed.  I'm all ears for more.  Klaus said it was gonna be good.  He always says that.  :wink:

Dunedain

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #36 on: 20 Nov 2003, 10:23 pm »
Yes, the 6dB figure is a general number, it can and does vary with speaker type, the room
they are used in, etc.  I'm just saying that power requirements can go through the roof if
you want to do something like Dolby reference volume for movies at the listening position,
depending on the exact situation.

As far as getting speakers to play that loud, well, like I said, this stuff I discussed
only applies if one happens to have speakers that can deliver this sort of volume in the first place. :)

Eduardo AAVM

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #37 on: 20 Nov 2003, 11:12 pm »
Quote from: pugs
Quote from: Eduardo AAVM
I just can say that Khartago sounds incredible, it has been in three days row improvement, really sounds good, and at very good levels I am using 89dB/w/m sensitivity speakers and the sound fill very nice a small room, the best part is that sound is vivid, musical, dynamical.


Can you please compare the sound qualities to the Stratos?

Thanks


Sorry I can't make a direct comparative evaluation because I have never had a Stratos Stereo standard, but I can say that the overall mid - highs preserve the same "sound signature" of the monos, wide open sound.

Bass is less controlled in Khartago but the comparison is not fair... Anyway I have played dual bass drums heavy metal CD's on the Khartago and man the amp has a lot of ... character...

Sincerly it is a very nice sounding amplifier...

One of the things has me more intrigued is the apparent flexibility to play being drived directly by some CD players, maybe a nice selection and one can save a pre.

MarkgM

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Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #38 on: 21 Nov 2003, 02:08 am »
I've heard through reviews of owners going from the Stratos to the monos of bass improvements.  Your Khartago is also picking up any improvements that have occured over the past year or two.  Coming from someone who owns the monos, sounds like another winner!

Eduardo AAVM

Khartago (new not so fine pics)
« Reply #39 on: 21 Nov 2003, 02:22 am »
Well, yes I ould sey it is a winner at it's price point...

I have listened:

Milles Davies
Tangerine Dream : Rubycon
Fleetwood Mac: The Chain
Metal: from Helloween to Gamma Ray, Nightwish, Blind Guardian, etc.
Mountain
Diana Krall: Legs Album  
Lesly: VTL (audiophile recording)
Mike Oldfield: Crisis
Billie Cobham: Spectrum
and some Vivaldi, Bach, Albinoni (adagios)

Well I just can say the amp worked and has worked really good, consider that the music is very differente from double bass drum to delicate strings.


Few more glimpses










Please don't blame me, I had to try, bass was very very boomy but in general mids and highs were ok. Hehe I am trying on real cheap approaches. Surely nonsense but I want to try. The CD is justa cheapo Jwin...
I need to say that when I drove the amp with a HiFI CD player the sound was very good.