Khartago (new not so fine pics)

Eduardo AAVM · « **on:** 4 Nov 2003, 01:29 am »

I was very busy but I promised this and here it is...

My gallery is here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=112

Salvador · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Nov 2003, 04:02 am »

first impressions???

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Nov 2003, 04:55 am »

How can Klaus get this level quality for even fewer dollars than the standard Stratos ?

Sound excellent at the price point even upper, same holographic sound, wide stereo image, nice details very very similar to the Stratos in overall sound reproduction.

Construction as always with the Odyssey/Klaus signature: bulit to last built like tank.

In fact the amp is burning in right now and I just made fast auditions, so please let me get a better time to make a full report...

One thing is for sure, some industry guys must be looking at this baby because it is a real contender.

Randy · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 01:39 am »

What are the specs for this amp? Klaus is so busy he can't find time to update the Odyssey website. I have a pair of Mono Extremes and don't even know what the specs are for it. Anyway, it sure is a beauty.

jackman · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 02:56 am »

No offense, but I've seen bigger donuts than that transformer. What is the power rating of that amp? What is the rating in a 4 ohm load? I think my preamp has a larger transformer and I'm not joking.

On a positive side, the price is right. I would like to see a comparison between this amp and a stock Carver Pro amp. There seems to be a lot of competition in the amp category lately. Looks like the consumer will be the winner!

Nice pictures. Thanks for the information.

Jack

klaus@odyssey · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 03:58 am »

Hi Randy,

Well, essentially it's the Stratos with a bit smaller power supply. I give it 1100 W A/AB RMS as a conservative rating. Other than that, it's really the Stratos with a smaller case and internal sinks. Actually, it is more like the $ 3,400 SL RG 11 than the Stratos is. The transformer is < 400 VA, is tightly wound to our specs, and weighs about 7lbs with a size of over 5" in diameter. It's a very nice, solid and able unit.

Then again, not enough for some people. Looking at the other posts where some person compared a 1"x1" 200 grams 800 VA switching power supply and tried to put the Stratos ps into the dirt because it has a lower VA rating on power without any idea as to the current deliveries, burst capacities, etc. Not the slightest idea as to what's involved in transformers. Look at numbers and weight, make up your conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pass yourself as an expert in power supplies. What a joke.

As long as something negative or slightly deterrent can be said and then masking it with a positive note somewhere. It's getting old.

Late,

Klaus

klaus@odyssey · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 04:00 am »

Oooops,

It's 110 W, not 1100 !!! Don't want to get involved in the overstating numbers race here.

Randy · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 05:23 am »

Thanks, Klaus. Looks like a great little amp. As far as the other guy goes, after visiting audio forums for only a couple of months, I've already learned to take his comments with less than a grain of salt, as do most others, I'm sure, who read his postings.

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 06:39 am »

Quote from: jackman

No offense, but I've seen bigger donuts than that transformer. What is the power rating of that amp? What is the rating in a 4 ohm load? I think my preamp has a larger transformer and I'm not joking.

On a positive side, the price is right. I would like to see a comparison between this amp and a stock Carver Pro amp. There seems to be a lot of competition in the amp category lately. Looks like the consumer will be the winner!

Nice pictures. Thanks for the information.

Jack

Hi Jackman, no offense my friend, hehe but I am not a multimeter or a measuring instrument, well I normally prefer my ears, so hehe sorry I can't answer many of the issues you posted, I can only reply that, yes maybe there are bigger transformers, bigger this bigger that but in any case the sound I am getting in my ears, no on spec sheets is really good, detailed hollographic completally an Odyssey/Symphonic Line heritage product.

Reggarding power even if it would be 70W per channel I would consider it a big contender, not because of power but because of it's sonic virtues, but also let me say that it is driving speakers of just 86dB of sensitivity without problem at very good and reasonable levels in a small room, mmm and also being feed directly from the CD output, without a pre, so this "small donut" amp really has guts.

I know, specs sheets, yes I miss them sometimes yes I also like to read the numbers and figure out, but sometimes just listening is enough and the only thing one needs.

klaus@odyssey · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 07:05 am »

Hey Randy,

Good, you've figured it out correctly as so many have. Some people are simply mean spirited and like to see others suffer, and do the best to destroy their live for years. For some people it's a little game, while for others it's their livelihood. One should turn the table, hmmm. Man, one of these days I really post everything. Nah, not yet, don't have time for this nonsense, even though he'd deserve it. One particular person is simply like a virus, just doesn't go away, and I promise, he'll come back for more. Hehehe, I have the cure in my hands, it's just nasty though.
Anyway, one thing here: the amp is not small. It's 18x4x18, and weighs around 32 lbs. !!! This amp is heavy and big, just small when compared to the Stratos. The same applies to the transformer. It's big, heavy, and compact, specifically designed for this amp design, not off the shelf. It's an awesome piece.

As for the numbers, the only thing that's really different is the 110 W class A / AB continuous , less current, > 30 amps, and the dimensions and weight. Other than that, they're pretty much the same as the regular Stratos, because it is nearly the same.

Goodies ?? Proprietary transformers and caps, WBT binding posts, Audio Selection reference feet, all Groneberg internal input and output wiring, 10 mm solid face plate, brushed, anodized, laser engraved.
$ 750 for this formerly 3k+ unit is ridiculous, but soon there will be tons of customers adding their comments here.

Late,

Klaus

W.C. · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 09:45 am »

Quote from: jackman

No offense, but I've seen bigger donuts than that transformer. What is the power rating of that amp? What is the rating in a 4 ohm load? I think my preamp has a larger transformer and I'm not joking.

On a positive side, the price is right. I would like to see a comparison between this amp and a stock Carver Pro amp. There seems to be a lot of competition in the amp category lately. Looks like the consumer will be the winner!

Nice pictures. Thanks for the information.

Jack

Hey, anybody in here have any bug spray???

jackman · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 02:02 pm »

Quote

Hi Jackman, no offense my friend, hehe but I am not a multimeter or a measuring instrument, well I normally prefer my ears, so hehe sorry I can't answer many of the issues you posted, I can only reply that, yes maybe there are bigger transformers, bigger this bigger that but in any case the sound I am getting in my ears, no on spec sheets is really good, detailed hollographic completally an Odyssey/Symphonic Line heritage product.

Reggarding power even if it would be 70W per channel I would consider it a big contender, not because of power but because of it's sonic virtues, but also let me say that it is driving speakers of just 86dB of sensitivity without problem at very good and reasonable levels in a small room, mmm and also being feed directly from the CD output, without a pre, so this "small donut" amp really has guts.

I know, specs sheets, yes I miss them sometimes yes I also like to read the numbers and figure out, but sometimes just listening is enough and the only thing one needs.

Thanks for the answer. I said it looks cool and sincerely believe it appears to be a bargain at the asking price. Regarding the people who have taken their shots at me for asking the question, I could have phrased it in a different manner, however I don't think it's out of line to ask how much power an amp can deliver into a 4ohm load. Read my comments, I didn't say it was not a good product and my question seemed legitimate to me at least. Didn't think the question warranted a personal attack but if it makes people feel good to attack me personally, please feel free, I will not retaliate.

If I was purchasing a car, I would want to know the gas mileage and the horsepower. And if a peek under the hood revealed a small engine, I would comment on it's appearance if there were no manufacturer specs revealing the actual measurements. But heck, some small engines can sure deliver the power, like a Honda S2000. Maybe this is the S2000 of the audio-world?

It's getting more and more difficult to find good, made in the USA products. This amp (if it is made in the US like the Stratos) appears to be a solid design that is well constructed using good parts. Maybe specifications don't matter to most people. I agree that your ears are the best judge, however it would be nice to have a bit more information, IMO.

I wish Odyssey the best of luck with the new products. If they deliver the same value Odyssey is known for at a lower price point, they should do very well. There seems to be more competition in the amp arena these days with products like the Carver Pro, digital amps from Panasonic and Sony and glut of high end amps selling for a fraction of their original cost on the used market at places like audiogon. However, there are few if any hand made, high quality solid state amps at this price point with the warrantee Odyssey offers.

Not pretending to be an expert (I think most people on this site have figured that out by now!) on audio or anything, however I doubt my expertise would be in question if my comments were overly positive, regardless of how outlandish.

Cheers,

Jackman

Eduardo AAVM · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Nov 2003, 03:29 pm »

Hi Jackman no problem at all I just tried to be fun and expressed my impressiones about this amp, let me try with some 4 Ohms speakers and I'll let you know but I do not know when that can be, because I do not have any.

I do not doubt out there may can be some good contenders but honestly at the price point/quality manufacture of the Khartago it will be a hard task to find some of them.

Good luck

MarkgM · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 03:01 am »

Klaus, how low would you go (on a load) and guarantee the Khartago? I know there's some guy out there with Infiniti Kappa 9s with Odyssey amps - I think they're like 1 ohm under 100 Hz, dipping to slightly less than that at the bottom. Could you drive a 2 ohm load with a Khartago? How about a direct short?

klaus@odyssey · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 07:09 am »

Mark,

Well, a direct short is out of the question, of course. Ahh, the zen of listening to blown fuses, hehehe.

Anyway, 2 Ohm is no problem for the amp. Completely stabile. At 1 Ohm or around that it should be fine, but certainly, the Stratos is a bit more stabile. For example, we have those %$#$%^$ Apogee Scintillas on some specially made Stratos (not the Extremes) and they work absolutely fantastic. The speakers #'s ??? 79 dB at 1,2 Ohm nominal !!!!! Crazy, those guys. Would the Khartago run them correctly ? Probably not. However, would the Khartago run the Kappas ? Yes, I believe so.

Late,

Klaus

MarkgM · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 06:07 pm »

Ah, the Zen of speaker-less audio! What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Well, I saw the note about the size of the transformer, and then there is this general stereotype about the quality of an amp. I initially thought it was small in the Stratos, too. The stereotypical view, I think, is what I would call "Krell-logic". If it's 300 wpc into 8 ohms, then it needs to be 600 wpc into 4 ohms and if supported, 1200 into 2. Well, are the stereotyped rules being broken? Sure. Fine by me - I've got 5 ohm speakers, and I don't question the ability of the Stratos.

And it gets me thinking about just what a person with a 2 ohm speaker expects to do. Do they honestly expect to put 1000 watts through their speaker, simply because it's a lower impedance? No, I think it's a parts mentality reminiscent of ISO 9000, but it aint gonna happen.

Klaus, I think you will always be picked on for the size of your transformers. haha Meanwhile, I am somehow not surprised by the response you gave about the Khartagos stability into lower impedances.

<<< begin anti-krell boat-anchor soapbox >>>
And for further contrasting: When my stereo is loud, the nominal output is 10 db above and the peaks are 20 db above, the 1 watt rating. Some lucky folks out there get more travel for their speaker money. Ok, so this is what I think audio is really like. The 10 db difference between average and peak outputs is the difference between 10 watts and 100 watts. The RMS of the amp in question is really going to hang out in the 10 watt category. The peaks are the part that hit 100, and amplifiers that react to peaks all the way back to the power supply - well, how are they going to react? They're going to have to approach the whole situation some other way (and I'm guessing short of fully class A - slowly). So there is IMHO plenty of money out there for added amplifier guts that I will never use.
<<< end anti-Krell boat-anchor soapbox - hug a tree, save the whales >>>

So what's the point? I'm thinking there are no rules. My 2 cents.

btw: At the above SPLs, you will be deaf by the time you're 50

satfrat · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Nov 2003, 10:09 am »

2¢

Regards, Robin

MarkgM · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Nov 2003, 06:10 pm »

Hello. Inflation, perhaps? My words have little value? Umm, penny a page? Ahhhh, do you suffer in reading comprehension/skills so it seems loooong?

How you doin, Robin? Still rockin out? Some of my nicer gear has already fallen to the undifferentiated masses, so I think of you more each day.

satfrat · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Nov 2003, 06:32 pm »

Quote from: MarkgM

Hello. Inflation, perhaps? My words have little value? Umm, penny a page? Ahhhh, do you suffer in reading comprehension/skills so it seems loooong?
How you doin, Robin? Still rockin out? Some of my nicer gear has already fallen to the undifferentiated masses, so I think of you more each day.

Your TOO kind Mark,,,, your sense just went up .00005¢.

Regards, Robin

MarkgM · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Nov 2003, 06:52 pm »

Oh, good! Maybe I can sell that too!

There's been alot of busy-ness on my part facing off elsewhere against what I call "Krell logic". It's like facing some kind of a marketing Goliath. Here's a link to further reading on the matter. I especially appreciated the helpful response by Norm Strong.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/31603.html