6 months with the HT3's

martyo · « **on:** 8 Jul 2008, 06:47 pm »

This could also be titled "what were your previous speakers", "what a journey", or "Marty, why are you telling us all this?" And it's going to be long, maybe even in installments.

First let me say the HT3's are all they are billed to be. Second, the HT3's are all they are billed as, third..................Okay, we all get that.

Went to RMAF last October to hear speakers. After 16 years we had just updated the entire front end of our set, now it was time for speakers. We would be replacing Carver ALS Platinum's, 4 12" woofs and a 60" ribbon per side mounted on an open baffle. NOTHING I played thru them was bass shy, although you could tell there were different amounts of compression, NOTHING sounded compressed, EVERYTHING was very dynamic. So we know the speakers were colored and added their own sound to the mix. But on the DEAD, they did a damn good job of recreating a concert, not easy to do. Very, very, big sound. OTOH, their sweet spot was so small, when you moved your head even a few inches, things changed. They shared that hazy focus that is common in non single point source speakers. They were not very resolving or open. However there was a characteristic of the sound that I hear with planer type speakers that makes it sound alive and real to me. Best room I heard at RMAF was the Apogee. Whether accurate or not, there is something in the sound, or not in the sound, with boxless speakers, especially with the bass, that really makes it real for me. In the mid 70's when I started with higher end gear, the trend(we all know about trends in hi-fi, huh?) was away from dynamic speakers (except for bass), away from boxes and all their inherent colorations, and especially from ported boxes. So I had a big time bias. And another bias was with the small footprint and all the dinky woofers. The average house in the U.S. is 2-1/2 times larger than in the '60's, and there are these little woofers for little boxes for smaller footprints.
In addition to a quality recording, I brought an average recording and one for bass to RMAF. The HT3's were one of several specific speakers I wanted to hear. I knew they were good on good recordings but I was concerned about the Dead/jamband concerts, and I was also concerned about the bass. I never was really able to hear my music at the volume levels I use thru the HT3's. I did hear a very similar type speaker at RMAF at those volumes and really liked it. (part of it's marketing pitch was that the midrange speaker was not magnesium). We were waiting for an after hours session with some linesources when my wife suggested we just keep the Carvers and get the HT3's. That was all I needed, the best of both worlds. (later it turns out that for me it's not practical to have to swap out speakers for different music).
On 12/22/07, I did the 700 mile round trip to Jim's and picked up the speakers. When I got back home, I called my neighbor/friend/listening buddy, to help me carry the speakers in. Set 'em up and had Joe pick the first cut to be played. He picked his favorite, a really powerful dynamic percussive cut that sounded like crap. Joe had been there as each piece of AVA gear was added and would get so excited about the improvements, he was really jacked to hear $5K+ speakers. He tried to be positive but I could see it in his eyes. My worse fears were realized. I had read some negative feed back on THAT DAMN Seas midrange driver like thin, metallic, clinical..........
Over the next 2 months I got the speaker placement dialed in and only listened to music that had above average recordings. Then came the day I went to the other side of the rack to all the live music I really love and hadn't listened to since the HT3's arrived. Cd after Cd after Cd, no bass, thin, compressed, some of my favorite music of all time, not enjoyable at all.
Jim has often said how ALL speakers are compromises, but I was really set that these were going to be all. More money than we should have spent and............I was very depressed. First off I had noticed there were a few other HT3 owners with a certain amp that they would put a certain brand of tubes in that are known for their very warm midrange(nice but a big coloration) and my group would say they basically have no highs and what low end they have is very sloppy. I also notice other components in HT3 owners sets that soften and warm the sound. I decide to go backwards in the AVA preamp world because as you go back you start to get the classic tube colorations and then I can those same type NOS tubes as the other owners are and warm things up a bit. I borrowed my brothers AVA T5 and had him give me an assortment of his "killer midrange" tubes (if there is a tube of that type, 12AT7, my brother has it), you know, warm, syrupy, fuzzy, midrange. Well, as I'm listening to the tubes I end up preferring the most revealing, uncolored, and extended of them all the Telefunkens, with the Siemens as the runner
up. I keep his pre for a month, during which time I almost bought a T7. When I got my T8 back I still preferred it.
Then I decided what I needed was subwoofers. Came close to buying some ACI Titans. Then I chilled because probably what I needed was different speakers altogether. I was lamenting and processing this with BrianM quite a bit and then I spent a Saturday Pm'ing with Chris(lonewolf). And of course the bro. Finally decided I needed different speakers, something on the warmer, more forgiving side, the HT3's were just not my cup of tea.
I explained my "dilemma" to a local Hi-Fi Salon and he came up with a list and other suggestions like RAW on the circle. Usher and Sonus-Faber and many others. Funny, as I was researching the different speakers I kept remembering Jim saying that with the typical store bought speakers, only 15% of what you pay is for the hardware. I'm pricing drivers and looking at the cabinet work of these speakers and I didn't even go for a listen. This is also the time of the show in Detroit and I'm fired up to hear the LS6's at Pete's but (luckily?)something came up on that Friday and we weren't able to make it.
Finally I pulled out the old speakers and hooked them up and WOW, I preferred it to the HT3's.
Did I mention that during that time I added 11 GIK panels. The old speakers sounded better than they ever did. After a day I went to a hybrid system, the woofs from the Carvers and the mids and highs from the HT3's.(both speaks are set up for bi'wire or amping) Of course that was loaded with mismatches but I stumbled onto 2 big keys. It wasn't so much the low lows that I liked about the Carver bass, it was all the air. That's why I like the Maggie's bass too. The second was as I was switching back and forth with the speakers I got lazy one time and actually bi-wired the HT3's. What a difference in low end response and sock. aa (seems a fellow named Pete mentioned that was important at RMAF when we bought the HT3's and for some reason I never did, although the Carvers were bi-wired).
At that point I decided to do my best to not compare the 2 speakers, take the HT3's for who and what they were, and just live with them and see what happens over time. Boy, that's a tough assignment, "you VILL have to listen to the HT3's for the next year!"

So what's the story now. I believe more than ever that A-B'ing doesn't tell the story. Live with something over time, with all kinds of music and moods and situations to really get the truth. What were accustomed to hearing is a huge bias, especially in A-B'ing. I was WAY too anxious to start changing gear.

The Ht3's are bittersweet for me. They will never do EVERYTHING. On quality recordings, actually on just a good recording, they are remarkable. Even some of the Dead and jamband sound good now with the increased low end and dynamics from bi-wiring. As I have gotten accustomed to normal bass, and accurate mids (not warm), and that high end, they keep sounding better and better to me. Maybe over time some more of those Cd's from that one side of the cabinet will be enjoyable again, but sometimes when I look at that side I'm sad and miss enjoying those tunes. Yeah, those highs. That ribbon really grows on you. There is a lot of talk about the W18 driver and most of the music comes from there but I think that ribbon is the co-star with the Seas.

Finally, I'm extremely pleased with the HT3's. Sound and looks and quality and the builder happens to be a hell of a guy too. I expect my appreciation of them will continue to grow over the months as it has over the last few when I finally decided to ignore biases and just listen.
Which brings me to my close. I'm into music, not gear. The first year I was around here I had the settings such that the circle opened to the AVA circle. I feel at home there. I'm going back to that setup with the possible addition of the music circle. Thanks for the time.

Marty

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Jul 2008, 07:27 pm »

Whew! That was a bunch. Did you stop for lunch during that write-up! For a while there I wasn't sure how the story was going to end.

I had the opposite happen: the HT3's grabbed me full on from the minute I heard them. They have gotten even better the more I tweak the system AROUND the speakers, which sounds like what you are experiencing now. But you might actually be an OB-style guy and box speakers may not be your cup of tea?

No matter what I throw at the HT3's they just give it right back and i haven't found their limits yet. Hopefully when I do the HTX will be ready to go.

You really need to get here Marty so I can get your reaction to my set-up and it might give you some ideas for yours. Some day.

martyo · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Jul 2008, 07:44 pm »

Yeah, I know it was long. I did do lunch during it. I've started it 4-5 times before, never to finish.

Some day Pete, some day.......thanks for all the invitations

AliG · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Jul 2008, 09:58 pm »

Marty, you need to inject more 'tube dosage' in your system to 'dirty up' the sound! aa aa aa

My recollection of AVA gears is that they're not 'tubey' enough for me. Also CD players sound very different from one another.

fsimms · « **Reply #4 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 12:42 am »

Marty, the Salks just give you what you got. The speakers aren't colored. They don't have a "sound" that you would like or hate. They have incredible bass. I have HT1's and the more I improve the rest of the system, the improvement comes through the speakers. The problems that you are having are not due to the speakers, it is from other things. I don't know if it is the room, equipment or source music. But, that is kinda what you were saying aa

DMurphy · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 02:00 pm »

Quote

I had read some negative feed back on THAT DAMN Seas midrange driver like thin, metallic, clinical..........
Quote

Whatever the weaknesses of the HT3 (or HT1), I'm pretty sure they're not due to the midrange cone material. I designed an alternative version of the HT3 using the W18 Nextel (coated paper) cone instead of the magnesium (the two drivers are otherwise identical in construction and price). I wanted to make sure the metal cone wasn't introducing spurious "detail" or other kinds of distortion, and if it was, I wanted to be able to offer Jim an alternative. I didn't have any vested interest in the outcome. Paper? Magnesium? Whatever. I was pleased with the outcome, but it was basically the same speaker. I couldn't pick up on any real differences in either the final measurements or the sound. It was an HT3.

laserman · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 02:48 pm »

Marty,

Thank you very much for writing an excellent review. This write-up shows that you thoughtfully took your time to live with the speakers and experimented with set up and equipment before jumping on the full review comment bandwagon. I generally dismiss reviewers who start out with something like, “I just removed them from their boxes, plopped them down and they sound wonderful…best speaker I have ever heard bar none…crappy...worse speaker in the Universe...” Your review portrayed a candid, sincere, and thorough view of your sonic journey and experience. You basically let the reader know how it may or may not be everyone’s “cup of tea” due to many variables, instead of fan-boying or trashing them. I was left with a real life non-fiction story and it put a smile on my face. The good, bad and ugly if you will. IMHO, this is how all reviews should be written. I look forward to reviewing your older posts and future comments you make about ALL your audio gear experiences.

Sincerely,
Lou

grenamc · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 03:01 pm »

I am in agreement with Lou on this. I quite enjoyed reading through your post Martyo. It is too easy to get wrapped up in the here and now in this hobby. I made a post about my present speakers a couple weeks after receiving them (Monitor Audio GS60) and read back through said review the other day. Whereas I never made any "best" type statements, the review by and large was pretty overstated and I wouldn't write the same one today. I hope that I can take a page from your book the next time I get a new speaker. It's just not easy to wait to post your experiences with new gear. Anyway, thanks for the articulate, well phrased narrative on your HT3 ownership thus far.

And Martyo,
I sent you a PM. The ulterior motive behind this post.

-Michael

miklorsmith · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 03:41 pm »

+1

These types of reviews are infinitely more helpful than fanboy stuff, well done.

martyo · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 04:15 pm »

Thanks Michael, Lou, and miklorsmith. I wasn't sure I did a good job telling the story as a few were still trying to help me "fix" the problem.

And Dennis, thanks for your always informative and welcome information. It's a great driver, kinda seems Salk Sound was started and built around that driver. Those negative comments about the material were just more fodder to feed my fears at the time.

DMurphy · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 05:14 pm »

My association with the W18 predates Salk--Dave Ellis asked me to whip up a design with the W18 and the 0W1 (the "1801"), and I could tell right away that the Seas was a winner. The HT1 is essentially the Ellis 1801 with a ribbon tweet, and the HT3 is an HT1 with a woofer. I have, however, been constantly perplexed by the frequent bad raps this driver gets--I'm convinced no one would hear any problems if they thought they were listening to a paper cone. We hope to do some carefully controlled blind listening to a variety of drivers with different cone materials this October at the Wash. D.C. DIY2008. It should be interesting.

Toka · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 08:00 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy on 9 Jul 2008, 05:14 pm

We hope to do some carefully controlled blind listening to a variety of drivers with different cone materials this October at the Wash. D.C. DIY2008. It should be interesting.

Hey Dennis,

Any chance you'll be trying the hemp drivers (not the full-range drivers, but the midbass) from A Brown Soun? They are the OEM for Omega (though those are a custom job I believe), and I always wondered how they would fare in something like a SongTower or some such...assuming it jives electrically, that is. Sorry for the thread detour.

IronLion · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 08:05 pm »

Whats this DIY 2008? I live in DC, sounds interesting...

DMurphy · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 11:46 pm »

Hey Dennis,

Any chance you'll be trying the hemp drivers (not the full-range drivers, but the midbass) from A Brown Soun? They are the OEM for Omega (though those are a custom job I believe), and I always wondered how they would fare in something like a SongTower or some such...assuming it jives electrically, that is. Sorry for the thread detour.

[/quote]

Hi I think I looked at the hemp quickly and didn't see anything that popped out at me spec-wise, but thanks for the reminder. I'm always on the prowl for interesting drivers.

DMurphy · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Jul 2008, 11:51 pm »

Quote from: IronLion on 9 Jul 2008, 08:05 pm

Whats this DIY 2008? I live in DC, sounds interesting...

Hi We've mounted several of these during the last 8 years, although I wasn't able to pull one off last October. People bring DIY speakers to show and get reactions to, and we try to hold some kind of a listening test. We've done capacitors (no difference), resistors (no difference), and 2nd order vs. 4th order crossovers (difference). Neil Davis, a very gifted electrical engineer, has some projects underway that may allow highly controlled comparisons of the inherent sound of driver material, and I'm hoping we can get everything together for a fall event. Stay tuned.

Toka · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Jul 2008, 12:34 am »

Dennis, you have PM.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Jul 2008, 03:27 am »

Nice write up Marty.....glad to see things worked out...

Happy listening.....

Chris

s_cervin · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Jul 2008, 01:19 pm »

Marty,

You mention you listen to a lot of live "jamband" music. In what years were these recorded and using what recording means? Are they betty board GD recordings? Ambient crowd recordings? I have spent many years recording Phish, Widespread Panic, Gov't Mule, ABB, Phil Lesh and Friends, and many others along the way. If you are listening to ambient recordings there is so much that can change the recording (mic placement, mic configuration, venue, gear, recording medium). Schoeps mics give to much bass (for my liking), AKG's can be thin, Neumann's have a nice warm tube sound, Microtech Geffel are best for heavy guitars since the midrange is the best of any mic, any of the Nakamichi shotgun recordings will be thin as heck and these were quite popular to stack tape with.

I have hundreds of personal recordings and others in FLAC format if you are looking. I have a ton of great GD and can't wait to listen to my new Salk Open Baffle's.

spons · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Jul 2008, 01:57 pm »

Quote from: martyo on 8 Jul 2008, 06:47 pm

...sometimes when I look at that side I'm sad and miss enjoying those tunes....

It makes me sad that you can't enjoy some of your favorite music anymore.

Should better gear should make all recordings sound better or make good recordings sound better and bad recordings sound worse?

It's my belief that if you can't listen to your favorite music on your system and enjoy it then you should modify your system.

I think the goal of most high-end designers is enhanced detail retrieval and soundstaging, and sometimes tonal balance can be messed up as a result.

randybessinger · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Jul 2008, 02:39 pm »

Quote from: DMurphy on 9 Jul 2008, 05:14 pm

My association with the W18 predates Salk--Dave Ellis asked me to whip up a design with the W18 and the 0W1 (the "1801"), and I could tell right away that the Seas was a winner. The HT1 is essentially the Ellis 1801 with a ribbon tweet, and the HT3 is an HT1 with a woofer. I have, however, been constantly perplexed by the frequent bad raps this driver gets--I'm convinced no one would hear any problems if they thought they were listening to a paper cone. We hope to do some carefully controlled blind listening to a variety of drivers with different cone materials this October at the Wash. D.C. DIY2008. It should be interesting.

I totally agree. I think people are very suggestible-which makes advertising higly lucrative.