Audio Perfection

UTLaw · « **on:** 2 Nov 2003, 03:57 am »

"Better than live" is the only fitting way to describe the RM/X system Julian has put together over at Sedona Sky Sound just outside of Austin, TX.

A bit about me...

I've been into audio for about 8 years now, and have heard countless systems up and down the West Coast, throughout Texas, and several tours through New York. Consistent favorites of mine have been: Revel Salon, Mag. 20.1 - solo instruments only, Aerial 8B, Genesis 201 & 350, V. Schweikert VR5, VMPS RM40. Everyone one of these had their drawbacks - even the RM40s when I originally heard them at Julian's. But I pretty much instantly fell in love the with the sound quality of the VMPS line - the depth and air of the Maggies combined with the realism of the Genesis line arrays. And what a price! I had a Lexicon/Bryston/Aerial 10T system while living in California, and my current little condo can only handle my Denon/VMPS 626Rs system. I graduate from law school next year, so I'll be making my "big" audio purchase during the later half of next year.

Julian recieves his RM/Xs....

I heard the RM/Xs shortly after Julian got them. The bass was cleaner. Acoustic music had more depth and pressence. But I just didn't feel they were worth twice as much as the RM40s.

Then Juilian finishes tweaking the RM/Xs....

I have never had an audio experience like this! I honestly did not believe audio reproduction of this caliber was possible! I was there. The music was real. There were no speakers in the room. Only singers. Only back up bands. Only the purest sounding music these ears have ever heard. I was overwhelmed by the realism Julian had created.

I mainly use two SACD for demo purposes because I've heard both of the singers live in intimate venues and on multiple occasions - Steve Tyrell, Standard Time (he's a Houston boy), and Eleanor McEvoy, Yola (g/f took me to a couple of concerts during a summer in England/Ireland).

With Yola I was there. I was back sitting in the best seat in a small little theatre in Dublin. The subtle nuances and micro-dynamics that you can only find in a live concert were all there. I sat mesmerized.

Standard Time proved to be better than ANY of the three times I've heard Steve. It was amazing. I was once again overwhelmed by sound quality I simply didn't believe could ever be recreated. Better than live, no contest....

Don't even get me started on the Midsummer Dream CD he tossed in. That may have been the single greatest audio experience I've ever had. I was in Italy. The depth, sound stage, and imaging were beyond belief. A small Italian jazz band had completely replaced the speakers. I closed my eyes and was in audio heaven.

Oh yes, I've never had ANY audio system "transport" me before - maybe slightly once hearing a 20.1 setup with solo piano, but I just couldn't go for the dipole. I simply didn't feel it was possible. Julian took me all over the world that day. Simply amazing!

I look forward to hearing his trinaural set up, but it simply can't be any better. I've heard audio perfection already.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #1 on:** 6 Nov 2003, 04:45 am »

Quote

"Better than live" is the only fitting way to describe the RM/X system Julian has put together over at Sedona Sky Sound just outside of Austin, TX.

While I have no doubt the RM/X are top echelon speakers, I could never, ever agree with a statement like this about ANY audio system. Unamplified live sound is the benchmark for Hi Fi that I personally don't think we are very close to achieving yet. I've never heard the RM/X , but they better be making up for a lot of the inadequacies of the upstream components and the vagaries of rooms for the "better than live" statement to be true.

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #2 on:** 6 Nov 2003, 10:53 am »

Hello mcrespo71,
You should give Rup a call so that you can demo the RM/Xs for yourself. As long at Rup has them set up correctly (not an easy task), I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

Do I personally think that my current System (System = room + speakers + electronics + accessories) is "better than live"? For most music that is well recorded (CD or SACD), absolutely. I know that is blasphemy, but I am neither a "tin-ear" or an audio neophyte. What is my basis and benchmark for my statement?

1) I am a musician
2) I regularly partake in the numerous live band and concert events here in Austin, Texas (the Live Music Capital of the World) so am VERY familiar with both amplified and unamplified live events
3) Two different professional recording studios are now using my system to "proof" their master CDs. I have heard performers (solo, accapelo, and band) in the recording studio and in my own playback environment. As long as the recorder/mixer used good equipment and did their job right, the end result should be better/clearer/more tonally balanced/etc than the original "live" studio performance.

In my opinion, it is relatively easy to create a system that can adequately reproduce amplified live music. Good speakers (Soliliquy, B&W, Snell) with good electronics (Aragon, Bryston, Marsh) and a standard US living room with some basic treatment should easily surpass this benchmark.

Creating a system that is "as good as" unamplified live music (primarily vocals, guitar, drums, and wind instruments) is more difficult but can be done. This is the point where a dedicated, properly designed listening room becomes more essential. Better speakers (VMPS, Wilson, Dunlavy) with better electronics (Pass, Mark Levinson, Spread Spectrum Technologies) are also required. The recording is often the limiting factor. I would guess that 90% of "pop" CDs, 50% of Audiophile CDs, and 30% of SACDs are not recorded to an acceptable level (noise, clipping, and limited dynamic range are the worst problems). However, a well mastered recording is already "better than live" from a technical perspective so even with a little imperfection in the audio chain you can still produce "as good as live" playback. For non-orchestra unamplified music, an additional benefit is that your speakers should also be exciting more air (even at the same SPL as the live event) and be able to reproduce tonally correct music at a higher SPLs (since most people prefer to listen at dB levels higher than can be naturally produced by live non-amplified events).

Creating a system that is "better than live" is extremely hard. This takes top-notch components and excruciating attention to detail (yes, a 1/2 inch difference in speaker placement WILL make a difference. Most owners/installers would rather spend money than time which is why many/most super high $$$ systems fail to reach this level). A system at this level will make some CDs unlistenable (it is amazing how many recording mistakes there are on commercial CDs), make good CDs/SACDs sound even better, and great CDs/SACDs sound truly breath-taking.

Just like a good telescope (i.e. TeleVue, Takahashi, etc.) allows you to see more detail in an object at 50 feet than if you held it in your hand, a good audio System will allow you to hear more detail in your room than if you sat 10 feet away in a live venue. Whether you actually want this level of clarity/imaging/soundstage is a totally different debate and is strictly a matter of preference (i.e., akin to the SS versus tubes debate). However, the technical performance for a "better than live" system is available for those willing to invest the time and money required. For individuals looking for the "emotional" connection with the music that they experienced at their first live concert when they were 16, I am not sure if this system (or any system) will do that.

Best of luck in your own personal audio quest. I personally passed the "as good as live" level when I installed the RM40/Ampzilla combo in my custom designed room. Now that I know what can be done with the RM/X, there is no looking back (kind of like when Chuck Yeager proved the sound barrier could be broken

).

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

Enrico · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 03:17 am »

Julian, that was a very interesting response. For many people the 'live performance' is like some kind of dogma...it 'can't be beat', but we don't even think about possible advantages of a recording over live.

Marbles · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 01:37 pm »

Julian,

How much better are the Elixir's than the 40's?

Woodsea · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 04:35 pm »

Now, now Ribbons

If the wife is not falling head over heals in love with your brand new RM40's, I would think that the RM/x's monoliths may be a harder sell.

Marbles · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: Woodsea

Now, now Ribbons If the wife is not falling head over heals in love with your brand new RM40's, I would think that the RM/x's monoliths may be a harder sell.

It's my basement and she doesn't have a say in how I decorate it....

I'm just curious at this point though as the 40's are sounding VERY VERY good. I was just wondering how much better can it get?

Audiobudha · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 05:42 pm »

Julian, FWIW I agree with you regarding your position on a sound reproduction system equaling or out performing a live musical performance.

From my own personal experiences most rock, pop and even jazz performances are at such high decibel levels the ears begin to create their own vibrating distortions. Additionally if the venue or PA system isn't ideal the room can increase distortion, feedback and other anamolies that get in the way of the sound.

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 06:37 pm »

Hello Marbles,
It is always really hard to say that a speaker is "X percent" better than another. However, I think I have a better way to describe the relative difference.

Take your RM40s and point them straight ahead (no toe-in). Now, turn all the pots full counter-clockwise to the point just before the pots short out (you want to still have sound coming out of all the drivers - Thanks to Jim Romeyn for pointing out this clarification). Once you have done that, scrape all the mortite off the passive woofer. After listening to this "de-tuned" system for a while, re-tune everything using correct toe-in, pot positions, and mortite. THAT is roughly the difference in sound between the RM40s and properly set-up and configured RM/Xs.

I hope that helps.

Julian

Marbles · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 06:42 pm »

Well, instead of cheering me up, I'm depressed

Sedona Sky Sound · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 08:15 pm »

Woops, that was definitely not my intention

. The RM40s are fantastic sounding speakers. The realization that a Ferrari is available shouldn't detract from the fact that your are driving a Porche

. Cost is another part of the equation (RM/X + four Ampzillas = $$). Be very happy with what you have. It is still better than what 99% of the world's population will ever hear.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

Andrikos · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Nov 2003, 09:27 pm »

Good job Julian, now you have him all depressed.
What, are you a Prozac salesman?

UTLaw · « **Reply #12 on:** 8 Nov 2003, 01:50 am »

I think Julian's room plays a HUGE role in the amazing sound he is able to get from his system. Place the same system in my condo, and you would likely have unbelievable sound that would ultimately fall short of the "live sound" standard.

I think it is clear to everyone that Julian is extremely passionate about going to the greatest of lengths in achieving the highest quality of sound reproduction possible. I believe it is wrong to say that recreating live sound is not possible when you haven't heard his system. But, honestly, I would probably be saying the same thing if I hadn't heard it for myself.

Was I hesitant to publicly label his current system "better than live?" Of course. But those were the exact words which left my lips weeks ago after hearing cuts off the Steve Tyrell SACD.

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Nov 2003, 11:25 pm »

Well, I will hopefully be hearing the top of the line VMPS speakers at Roop's if he holds the next NYC meeting, so I'll hopefully have a better idea of your "better than live" comments for the VMPS RM/X's.

As for your better than live argument, it makes definite sense for amplified music. I guess there are types of live, unamplified music that a system can be asked to reproduce. Vocal, small ensemble, guitar are types of music that a really great system, which it sounds like yours is- Julian, may create more detail and transparency than if you had a violin player in the room. However, I don't think that the analogy you used about the level of detail (e.g., the telescope can see the hand better at 50 yards vs looking at your hand with your own eyes) necessarily translates to better IMO. For example, I could use the same telescope and see Cindy Crawford's pores and visual imperfections better with a telescope too, but I'd rather just appreciate her with my own eyes.

As for my claim that I've never heard a sound system come close to reproducing the sound of live, unamplified music, I still stand by it, especially for, since we are getting so specific about types of live, unamplified music, orchestral. I see the NY Philharmonic 6 times a year via a subscription and as good as I am sure the VMPS's are, I still am dubious that they can fully recreate the full scale, soundstage width/depth, and complete purity of all these instruments playing in synergy than what I hear at Avery Fisher Hall. I haven't heard any system even come close to reproducing Mahler #3 like the NY Philharmonic does playing at Avery Fisher Hall. As good as gear has become, to be able to reproduce the true live, unamplified sound of an orchestra playing in a hall requires more than just good gear, but a room that can truly allow for that type of layering, width/depth, etc to happen with the same sense of scale as the hall. It sounds like Julian may have that type of room, but I really would have to hear it with my own ears. I like hardware and all, but it seems infinitely cheaper and enjoyable to me to just pay my $600 and go see the NY Philharmonic in person.

Michael

audiojerry · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Nov 2003, 05:51 pm »

Maybe the debate is muddled in semantics. Maybe it should be stated that "better than live" is not the same as "more real than live".

Listening to recorded music on a good system in your own home can easily be more enjoyable than sitting at some live venue where there can be all kinds of factors distracting from your enjoyment of acoustic unamplified music. So, in this instance, it is "better than live".

However, when you listen to an acoustic instrument close up first hand, no recording played back on any system will equal the real instrument. Close, in some ways; but highly artificial in others. As audiophiles, I think we train our brains to bridge the gap into accepting the difference between recorded sound and live sound.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Nov 2003, 12:59 am »

Having just heard a chamber orchestra from Tel Aviv at Carnegie Hall yesterday I can assure you that no, speakers are not able to produce the same sound as the live event.

They can however produce an event that is highly satisfying in their own right that can be musically and emotionally fulfilling.

I also attended "Barber" at the Met Sat evening from the 3rd row, same thing applies. But my friend John D-C, who sang the Bartolo at that performance, is very happy with his RM 40's, which I have heard at his home with a recording of him singing the Mustafa in Rossini's "L'Italiana" and again, it was very satisfying. Since John sang along live next to his recorded self I had instant feedback of a unique kind. We all left his place very happy.

JoshK · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Nov 2003, 03:22 pm »

Big B, are you in NYC? If so pm me and we should get together for a brew.

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Nov 2003, 03:28 pm »

My wife and I were in NYC only 2 days, mostly to hear John sing at the Met. We squeezed in a Carnegie Hall concert and the Lion King, then came home. Sorry there was no time for visiting. When Rup is ready I will visit him and other AC'ers in the metro NY area.

seadogs1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Dec 2003, 02:02 am »

May I be so bold to ask what Julian's setup is for the RM/X. What auxillery components do you use ie. amps cables and anything else that applies. What are the dimensions of your room and do you use wall treatments? And finally what are your instructions for proper setup of the RM/X's. Thanks. You guys and gals may win me over yet.