[orthobiz]

I'm in northern lower Michigan and we had record rains. My basement flooded. My prior office/soundroom was 10.5 x 23 which was a nightmare as I insist on running my Dahlquist DQ-10's. They looked like they almost touched! Anyway, we're down to 2x4's, cement poured floor and cinderblock. I'll have a nearly 8 ft ceiling and I'm wondering what's the smallest room I can have for audio? Maybe a small desk behind a couch that provides seating for two or three people?

I'm thinking of having Rives audio design the room...Thanks,

Paul

BTW, here's a pic of where the room used to be:


The big living space is 30x40; the white post marks the 15 foot midpoint, it's structural and cannot be removed. Is it possible to make the room 15 x 15 or is a square room the ultimate no-no?

[orthobiz]

More info:
My original narrow room looked like this:





For a while, I had a nightmare nearfield setup with speakers on the long wall:










No pics of my final arrangement (my desk at one skinny end, speakers on the short wall
on the other skinny end).

Paul

[pbrstreetgang]

what was the size of that ? 10.5 X 23? did you ever get good sound out of the room? I currently have moved to a MUCH smaller room than I am used to having 12X15X10 and am geeting passable sound but it was dialed in well 20X12X8 that was open at both ends

[JLM]

Orthobiz,

I'm from east/central Michigan and have a dedicated listening room ala Cardias, you're invited to come over.  My set up is nearfield with computer chair straight behind the listening position for a good casual listening spot.

The smallest listening room would be headphones.  Many crummy rooms IMO deserve headphones compared to the rest of the system.

Smallest ratios I've seen recommended are height x 1.14 x 1.39

Next smallest ratios are height x 1.28 x 1.54

The Cardias ratios are height x 1.62 x 2.62

I'd go for the ratios that provided the largest possible volume of space, as in this game size does matter.  Nearfield listening helps to take away room effects.

A skewed setup (where the first direct reflections are more than 11 feet long) can be a possible help.  I note that your former setup had extremely short first direct reflections with your head against the back wall.

Lots of room treatments would help.  I see you use the corner triangles.  I'd also recommend GIK 242 panels for first reflection points and the large triangles in the corners.

I'd recommend staggered or double insulated interior stud walls, isolated/insulated ceiling (no recessed can light fixtures), exterior insulated fiberglass door, flexible/insulated ductwork (if you decide to go away from the baseboard heaters), and dedicated circuitry.  And of course get that water intrusion problem fixed first.

[Big Red Machine]

I wouldn't waste your money with Rives with all the help you can get here for free. 

Are you trying to make it a combination listening and office space?  Looks like if that stud wall down the center can be moved you'll be in business.  There are plenty of us here in MI who can help you.

[orthobiz]

what was the size of that ? 10.5 X 23? did you ever get good sound out of the room? I currently have moved to a MUCH smaller room than I am used to having 12X15X10 and am geeting passable sound but it was dialed in well 20X12X8 that was open at both ends

The sound never met my expectations. I was thinking of further tweaking things before I had water in the basement. For instance, the padding on the floor was inadequate and I had huge resonances coming from it. And the speaker stands were never isolated with spikes. And if you're gonna have Dahlquists, guess you have to remove the grilles and side pieces and make them pure woofer boxes with top panels, not visually appealing by any means!

Paul

[orthobiz]

Orthobiz,

I'm from east/central Michigan and have a dedicated listening room ala Cardias, you're invited to come over.  My set up is nearfield with computer chair straight behind the listening position for a good casual listening spot.

The smallest listening room would be headphones.  Many crummy rooms IMO deserve headphones compared to the rest of the system.

Smallest ratios I've seen recommended are height x 1.14 x 1.39

Next smallest ratios are height x 1.28 x 1.54

The Cardias ratios are height x 1.62 x 2.62

Are there other ratios posted anywhere?
I think I may be able to put a 12x20 room in with a 7.5 foot ceiling...
that's pretty much like Cardas has posted as an example on his website.
And you're welcome to come over here, I'll need lots of help! I'm in Cadillac, how far are you?

Paul

[Ethan Winer]

Are there other ratios posted anywhere?

It's all explained here:

Graphical Mode Calculator

Even without a computer to run the program, you can click the screen shot to see it full size and read eight "favored" ratios.

--Ethan

[bpape]

Just remember that there are no 'perfect' ratios.  All one can do is avoid particularly bad ones with dimensions that are equal to or multiples of the other - or - rooms that are more than 2.5' as long as they are wide/high (tunnels).

Whatever you do, plan not only to be able to have room behind the speakers but good room behind your seating.  Sitting against a wall causes tons of problems not only in bass response but trying to get any kind of fell of a space behind you in the soundstage.

Bryan

[orthobiz]

Looking at the realtraps ratios, the highest one is 1.6 x 2.33.
Looks like the whole room is dictated by the ceiling height so,
how about a room that is 7.5 x 12 x 17.5? Or is the 1.6 x 2.6 Cardas ratio
a necessity? (Our family room will benefit from any additional footage by
shrinking my sound room a bit, so I like the 2.33 concept).

I promise not to sit on the back wall!

BTW I have a Rel B2 subwoofer. Maybe I need to get modern: I've had the Dahlquists since college 1975 and I've had them completely redone by Regnar (I've posted about it before) about 3 yrs ago. But maybe smaller 2-ways on stands with a sub could be the way to go.

Thanks for the help so far!

Paul

[bpape]

I've been in several rooms that are the 1.6x2.33 ratio and it works pretty well and gives lots of length to play with.  More than 12' width would be nice but you use what you have. 

If you like the DQ-10's, stay with them.  There are certainly a lot worse things out there.  You'll play a LOT with sub positioning to get things optimized but that's half the fun!

Bryan

[orthobiz]

I've been in several rooms that are the 1.6x2.33 ratio and it works pretty well and gives lots of length to play with.  More than 12' width would be nice but you use what you have. 

Bryan

I guess the question is how important is the height of the room? Seems like it dictates all the other measurements. For instance, can you forget the height and use the 1.6 x 2.33 ratio alone?

Paul

[TomS]

I've been in several rooms that are the 1.6x2.33 ratio and it works pretty well and gives lots of length to play with.  More than 12' width would be nice but you use what you have. 

If you like the DQ-10's, stay with them.  There are certainly a lot worse things out there.  You'll play a LOT with sub positioning to get things optimized but that's half the fun!

Bryan

I agree with Bryan on the DQ-10's, especially since they've been refurbished.  Also, the REL B2 is a top notch sub by current standards, so I'd just stick with that too unless you just have an itch    I had a B3 that mated very well for 2-channel listening especially.  Many of the newer subs are optimized more for HT use (more kapow factor than seamlessness), but can be harder to integrate with 2ch systems .

[bpape]

The ratios mean nothing if you don't consider everything.  The height is usually the dictating factor since 99.9% of the time, it can't be changed.  8' high and 12' wide isn't great since 3xheight - 2xwidth.  Realistically, that's getting up in the higher 'harmonics' of the modes but it's still a potential issue.  8'x1.6 dictates 12'8" width. 

If you're stuck at 7.5', then the 12' width is appropriate.  If you want to play, try this site

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

It will show you not only axial modes but also tangential and obliques.  It'll show you the distribution per octave, where you fall within established ratios and rules of thumb, and also give you some target decay times - though the ones it shows you are much deader than you'll want in a 2 channel space.

Bryan

[orthobiz]

If you want to play, try this site

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

Bryan

Wow! I shoulda paid more attention in Physics 101!!!
Anyway, I have lotsa greens, some yellows in the low frequencies and a curve at the bottom of the page that
looks more "good" than "bad."

[bpape]

More good than bad is a good thing 

If you follow one of the 'approved' ratios, you should pass everything on that site.  Now, its just a matter of setting everything up properly inside the space.

Have fun!

Bryan

[orthobiz]

Looks like if that stud wall down the center can be moved you'll be in business.  There are plenty of us here in MI who can help you.

The stud wall is actually off to the side. All studs are coming down. I've drawn a rough line where the footprint of the 12 x 17.5 room would be.





Paul

[Ethan Winer]

I guess the question is how important is the height of the room?

The height is at once important and not important.

Important because it's always best to have a good starting point. Not important because all rooms problems can be improved greatly with bass traps. The best solution for a low (relatively speaking) ceiling is lots of thick absorption.

--Ethan

[smk]

I've had a lot of luck with speaker placement using article at RealTraps (http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm). Another iteresting option is option would be the Steve Deckert's "room" at the Decware website (http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm). I've never heard of actual use outside of Mr. Deckert's lisrening room, but it is interesting.While you're there he also has several "articles" dealing withroom size.

Whatever method you chose, be precise in measurements & placement.

[orthobiz]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm not at all ready for speaker placement yet!!!!
I'm getting set on a room that is 12 x 17 or 17.5 x 7.5 high.
I'll have lots of other questions along the way.
The support here is outstanding. Think I'll skip a paid consultant for now!

Paul