[HChi]

In the last few months I sold both of my Krell 250a and Pass Labs x250.  Now I am back to the market shopping for an amp.  I have been following the news of AVA for a couple years now and may chat with a few of you on 550ex before.  Basically I would need feeback on a few questions:
 
1. How long does it take get a unit?  Because I have a 3-week trip in late Nov, if it is going to take about three weeks, it makes no sense to order one now and waste all the 30-day trial.  I know Frank is probably the best person to answer this question, but I thought I would check with prior owners first.

2.  I read a copule comments here already, but could the upgrade owners share more about the improvement on this new R upgrade?

3.  Has anyone had extensive experence with Pass or Krell amps and do not mind sharing the difference in timbre quality, and pro's and con's of 550EX/EXR, Krell, and/or Pass in area such as soundstage, imaging, airness, dynamic, transparency, speed, etc?  I am looking for some comparative in terms of area of strengthes and so-so's.  This may give me some idea of the timbre nature of 550EX and how it may match with my system and mostly my taste .  Obviously the auditioning will be the final test.

4.  What tubes are rolled and preferred by current owners?  What are the specific effects the individual owner prefers over other tubes?

Thanks very much,
-Howard

[avahifi]

We have just started shipping Fet Valve EXR series amplifiers and no AudioCircle posters have received one to comment yet as far as we know.  That will change in a couple of weeks.

We are very happy with the Tesla (JJ Electronics) ECC81 tubes we are now using.  They provide a good combination of extended dynamics, transparency, and definition.  Some other tubes will give you a milder overall persentation, but in our judgement with some loss of overall reality.  

We have just set up in a new sound room and actually cannot hear a thing until we get the room completely acoustically treated (acoustical wall fabric on order now).  This experience reinforces my recommendation that the most important component in your high end audio system IS THE ROOM.  If its hard and bright nothing else you do will even give you a clue as to how good or bad your audio system is.  A $600 roll of acoustical fabric (goes up like wallpaper - comes in 99 foot x 4.5 foot rolls and in many different colors and textures) is probably the most important "audio component" you should consider, certainly comes way way way ahead of changing interconnecs, speaker wires, or power cords. Ask for the acoustical fabric sample book at any high quality paint/wallpaper store.

I will take a bunch of photos when we install the acoustical fabric so you all can see what it takes.  I anticipate a nice quiet, non-reflective room that again will support great sound.

Frank Van Alstine

[HChi]

Thanks Frank for the tip.  As a copule of my friends once told me, the truth to euphony is 50% room treatment, 30% equipment selections&synergy, and 20% owner's ability to tweak!  They all suggest to spend more time improving the listening environment, which will saves (tens of) thousands of dollars from equipment switchings and purchases.   After all, enjoy the music is the goal while all the equipments testing and switching are just means of getting there!  However, many of us often get lost in the latter and forgot the motive that starts us this hobby in the first place.

Sorry for the off topic 'venting'.  Could you please also tell me the approximate wait time for acquiring a 550EXR? Thanks!

[lonewolfny42]

Frank said: "We have just set up in a new sound room and actually cannot hear a thing until we get the room completely acoustically treated (acoustical wall fabric on order now). This experience reinforces my recommendation that the most important component in your high end audio system IS THE ROOM". Frank , I have a question for you . If you could build any size room for a sound (audio only) room, what would be the dimensions of that room. Thanks !

[warnerwh]

I'd like to see what acoustical wall fabric is. It sounds like something quite thin which would limit it's ability on the mid/lower frequencies.  Why have I not heard of it before is also bothering me. No doubt most people don't do enough or anything for that matter about their rooms. Certainly some of the most cost effective sound improvement is through room treatment. I suspect alot of electronic upgrades are actually room related problems trying to be resolved. A side benefit of room treatment is that it makes your equipment seem like it has a better S/N ratio and it is quite obvious. If this stuff looks nice I'd like to know where you get it. Thanks

[John B]

I'd like to see what acoustical wall fabric is. It sounds like something quite thin which would limit it's ability on the mid/lower frequencies.

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/crosspoint_fabrics.asp

Though I wonder if something like this, where you're treating a problem area, instead of the entire room, would be more effective both in absorbtion and cost.

http://www.silentsource.com/fwpanels-fabritec.html

[avahifi]

Actually the problem is the whole room, about 21' x 14' with finished wallboard walls, a big patio door, and two other doors.  It sounds like a big box, even with a nice thick wall to wall berber carpet.  The treatment will be to cover all the walls (and the doors) with acoustical fabric (the sample book is as close as you local wallpaper store) and the patio door with a new heavy cloth vertical blind, instead of the existing hard plastic vertical blind.  Then hope that works or will have to do acoustical tile on the finished ceiling too.  The acoustical fabric works very well down to 200 hz or so, below that speaker placement and where the subwoofer is placed and such is more important (at least the room is solid at low frequencies - concrete floor and two sides, and solid stiff construction elsewhere).

Again, we would suggest that ANY reflections from you room, especially in the high end and midrange, are wrong wrong wrong, they were not part of the original recording enviornment and are as bad as hiring a flute player to always be there to accompany all the music you play back too, even that not scored for a flute, and a flute you cannot turn off.  I think you guys don't seem to get it, ANYTHING your room does to the sound is wrong, the goal is to make it completely go away.  If your system sounds wrong in a totally acoustically dead room, there is something badly wrong with the system.  Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

Also kinda wonder about worrying about the cost of the acoustical fabric when it is much less than many of your are spending for gonzo power cables and other snake oil.

Frank Van Alstine

[jackman]

Also kinda wonder about worrying about the cost of the acoustical fabric when it is much less than many of your are spending for gonzo power cables and other snake oil.

Hey, you stole my thought!  It's funny when people try to pinch pennies on something that is proven to make an improvement on a system's performance (like room treatments), yet spend big $$$ on things with questionable (I'm being nice) impact like power cables and snake oil without question.  

J

[warnerwh]

Thanks for the link to the wall fabric. I wonder why this stuff is so obscure. It doesn't look to me like it would work that well compared to acoustic foam.  I may be wrong but doing a whole room with this stuff may also create problems as it will tend to dampen some frequencies more than others.  Wonder why recording studios use foam?

[John B]

I may be wrong but doing a whole room with this stuff may also create problems as it will tend to dampen some frequencies more than others. Wonder why recording studios use foam?

I don't think your wrong at all, in fact the reason I don't do room treatments, even the easy way out that Frank proposes, is it's all guesswork on my part.  You don't know what it's gonna sound like before you put it up.  And I'm not about to spend any kind of cash on something that may cause more harm than good.   The day I invest in room treatment is the day I read an advertisement from a local business that offers to come to your place with an RTA and a variety of treatments.   Once they show me a graph on my room response, and try different treatments, showing not only improvement on the graph, but I hear it with my own ears, then I'll pay the price.

[avahifi]

I did the same thing in Burnsville (acoustic fabric) --- it works.  Meanwhile, I will be interested in snake oil cables and interconnects when some local company advertises that they will come out and measure how bad my cables and interconnects and power cords are and then hook up a bunch of different ones and show me how good everything measures and sounds now.  (By the way, that has already happened here - in Burnsville a few years ago, wonder cable perveyor went home with tail between legs when in a true double blind test there was no difference at all).

Might acoustic foam work better yet?  Sure, but the fabric option leaves you with a wife friendly room stiill and will absolutely kill all the "box" echos and ringing typical of a normal home.  You end up with an attractive decor and a warm, quiet, music friendly room.  Lucky it is sold mainly to solve much worse acoustic problems than audiophiles have and has not hit the audiophile market or some scam company would be selling the dipped in virgins blood at midnight version for $50 a square foot or more.

By the way, the acoustical fabric is going up one wall at a time, starting with the wall behind the system, obviously if we can get the room to quit "sounding" without doing everything we will stop when it works well.  No point wasting money.  Past experience says that the whole thing will need to be done though, including the doors.  Sorry so many of you have not heard first hand how important a great sounding room is. I winced when I saw the photos of the room where the Biro speakers were compared to others by MadDog a few weeks ago -- how could all those guys have been smiling with sound that crappy from everything?   I have had so many very positive comments from visiting "dropinophiles" over the years telling me that the best sound they ever heard in their lives was here.  One from Chicago recently said (when I played the first track - Dualing Banjos - from the old Deliverence soundtrack), "oh I did not know they had done an audiophile remaster of that"  --- duhhhhh  ---- they hadn't - it was the system -- and the listening room.

Frank Van Alstine[/i]

[John B]

I winced when I saw the photos of the room where the Biro speakers were compared to others by MadDog a few weeks ago -- how could all those guys have been smiling with sound that crappy from everything?

Could be Frank that most of us are so used to having the room be apart of the sound we hear that we have become habitually attuned to it.   Also, having tried some home made wall treatments myself, I can say that I did not like the effect they had.  Now whether this dislike was based upon being so acclimated to a "live" room or because the application of or material used was not optimal for the room, I can't say.  My guess is that it's like your first experience with an ISF calibration.   It takes some time to get used to seeing colors accurately reproduced on a display that is factory calibrated to torch mode

[Doug_B]

Before I had my system put together, I was remodeling the room into which I was to put all my equipment. I did not go "out of my way" to place special acoustic treatments. However, I did make sure that the glass window (9' wide) and doors that I added to the room openings (square glass panes) were covered with drapes, as much to darken the room for HT as for audio concerns. Once I had the carpeting and all the drapes up, I was amazed at how dead the room sounded. I was concerned, because I wasn't used to this. Well, my ribbons did not fade away into the room, and now I can't imagine how it would have sounded without the drapes or carpeting.

Doug

[Marbles]

John B, I think sceptism is healthy, especially when dealing with "audiophile" products.

With that in mind, I'd like to recommend you try the Eigth Nerve room treatments.  They should be under $300 for your room and have a 30 day return period.

I think that there would be very little risk and possibly great returns...their products work great for me.  As always YMMV.

[warnerwh]

John: I believe you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying some treatment, at least behind your stereo. You'll be amazed how much it helps.  The Eighth Nerve products is a good idea as you can return them if you want (but you won't be).  Room treatment is crucial and you'll find it's a bargain for the improvement in sound. One thing I've noticed is that Frank keeps harping on the treatment and he's absolutely right.  It's good to see a manufacturer push this.  If you have some expensive cables just sell them and get some Radio Shack cables and room treatment with the extra money left over.  You'll be buying some more treatment before you know it and your room will end up looking like it's part recording studio, at least that's how my living room has ended up.  If you're not interested in the Eight Nerve products just get some acoustic foam from here:
http://www.foamorder.com/products.cgi?cart=b0W0t0n29193142221n6A2c1Z&item=acoustic
You'll want the thicker stuff and they'll cut it to any size you want. Just order a couple of pieces say 3'x3' and see if it helps.  You'll notice an improvement immediately, no listening for a difference. This is something you'll wish you tried a long time ago.

[Anton K.]

I did the same thing in Burnsville (acoustic fabric) --- it works.  Meanwhile, I will be interested in snake oil cables and interconnects when some local company advertises that they will come out and measure how bad my cables and interconnects and power cords are and then hook up a bunch of different ones and show me how good everything measures and sounds now.  (By the way, that has already happened here - in Burnsville a few years ago, wonder cable perveyor went home with tail between legs when in a true ...

 
Yeah, show 'em! I wonder for how long this global cable fraud will be tolerated by audiophiles!

[John B]

John: I believe you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying some treatment, at least behind your stereo. You'll be amazed how much it helps.

I'm actually planning on purchasing the room pak from Eight Nerve next month.   Or at least I was, now things may get a little more refined.   My issue with room treatments was I would be treating something that I did not know for sure needed that treatment, or how to apply it in the most effective manner.   Now it looks like I may have a resource to have my room properly mapped and analyzed for a more effective implementation of room treatement.

[warnerwh]

John: If you just do some room treatment in the back of your system and maybe something for first reflections if necessary you'll be very happy. You don't need to worry about if you are doing it right. The common LEDE,(live end dead end) idea works well and is quite common. If you're not familiar with it then check out the VMPS site on "A good acoustical environment" or something like that on the main page where Brian explains.  Your money will be well invested.  Good Luck