[hartwerger]

I'll try to be as brief as possible. I'm looking for some help to improve my vinyl setup.  I posted this question on the vinyl asylum and was curious as to what you guys thought. 

I suppose the question is where do I go from where I am.  I'm not sure exactly where in the chain to upgrade.  My current system is a Rega P2 table w/ the RB300 tonearm. Cartridge is a Goldring 1042. I also have Grado Sonata. I loved the midrange of the Grado (vocals sounded incredibly real), but I seemed to get too much surface noise and skiping on my older records so I switched to the Goldring and the sound is a lot smoother, quieter and less skipping (I'm open to the possibility that the Grado was not set up properly if anyone thinks I should give it another chance). For my phonostage, I'm using the phono section of a Mapletree Audio Ultra 4A preamp (I also have a Hagerman Bugle, but the Mapletree is much better for my current setup).

If I was to upgrade the turntable, I would prefer to buy used so I can get more mileage for my money, but I need to be cautious since I've been burned with shipping damage on turntables in the past. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Money is a big issue. I prefer to keep the cost under $750, but would be willing to swing more if the right deal presented itself.

I'm looking for a smooth neutral sound (though slightly to the warm side of neutral is ok) that excels at soundstage and imaging. I "suspect" part of the problem is the Rega table runs a bit fast. I suspect this because when I first play a record, it sounds a little bright, acoustic guitars can be a bit twangy sounding. By the end of the record, where I've been told the higher frequencies can be attenuated just a little, the sound is more "right", that is, guitars and vocals sound more natural than they do earlier in the record. So, perhaps the pitch is high because the table is running slightly fast? I've also read some other opinions that lower end Regas may run ever so slightly on the fast side.  Additionally, the imaging is not as well defined, solid and full as it is on my CD rig (an older version Lector 7T).   

Just one more thing to throw into the mix. I have a Thorens 125 MKII that has some shipping damage. I was hoping to use it for a second system one day. The motor and suspension seem fine. The dust cover is broken and the end stub of Audioquest PT6 tonearm is broken. I don't know if its worth getting an armboard and putting my RB300 on this table. I just don't have enough experience to know all the options.

I guess the question is where is it best to put my money right now to improve the sound of my vinyl setup. I could sell my current table and tonearm and start all over. I could just get a new table and transfer my RB300 arm to the better table. I could try to revive the Thorens for the main system and replace the Rega or put the RB300 on the Thorens.  I could stick with the Rega and try a different cartridge. Or, perhaps an upgrade to the phonostage. 

As always, thanks so much for all thoughts and ideas.

[TheChairGuy]

If money is an issue and you'd prefer to keep you Rega as shipping is problematic (if that is indeed what I read)....then how 'bout improving your equipment support (thick maple block and compliant feet will be less than $150.00 if you shop around - assuming your in the US ?)

At this stage that might prove to be a very beneficial upgrade if your current support is lacking.  There are other options for support, of course, but we're trying to keep this cost effective for you.

As you know your Rega is annoying 1% too fast...why not buy an outboard speed controller from Rega or Heed?  Better fidelity is assured from that....I think they are both under $400.  As Rega's have good resale - you'll not likely lose much if you decide to sell it all in the near future to try something else.

Upgraded acrylic platter only $65: http://britaudio.com/Pictures10.html

There's a lot of upgrades to both deck and tonearm available (counterweight, re-wiring, new sub-platter, etc) so that you can choose to upgrade as your budget allows.

Again, one of the great things about Rega is that they are not fiddly and have good resale if you decide to more meaningfully trade up in the future.  $750 (or so) spent on support, feet, outboard speed controller and a new subplatter and platter will get a serious performance boost now...without having to toss your faithful Rega friend.

I suspect you might have the Grado Sonata not optimized somehow...but maybe not; preferences are often quite individualized and you may just prefer the Goldring after all 

Regards, John

[Wayner]

I'd like to go back to your skipping problem. Sounds like your anti-skating is incorectly set. Unless you have very bad surface scratches, your tone arm shouldn't "skip".

Wayner

[hartwerger]

Thanks John.  Money is always a problem (not having enough of it).  I'm not afraid of having a turntable shipped, but I guess I would need a bit more faith and confidence that what I'm buying is indeed the right thing to do and that the shipper knows how to pack and ship (of course, I sent the guy that sold me the Thorens 3 separate instructions on packing and shipping  and he still opted not to follow the instructions or my requests).   

Anyway, the upgraded motor is indeed an idea I considered, but wasn't sure if it was worth it.  You to suggest that there is room for improvement with the Rega that would be good value for the investment.  This is what I'm trying to find out before making the jump.  Not having the exposure or experience with many turntables makes this the unknown factor for me.

Yes, the Grado was possibly not setup optimally and Wayner may be right about the anti-skate.   I'll skip over the details, but based on your reaction I definitely will try the Grado again. 

[TheChairGuy]

Thanks John.  Money is always a problem (not having enough of it). 

Please introduce me to the first person you meet that has a money problem.....having too much of it 

Regards, John

[doug s.]

once again, i will pitch empire decks as the best decks under $700, especially w/upgraded tonearms.  the older unsuspended empires are a lot easier to retrofit tonearms...

doug s.

[lcrim]

Get in touch with Kevin @ KAB.  Get a Technics 12xx  w/ tonearm damper and tonearm rewire.  If you can, sell the other two TTs but retain the cartridges.  You can then enjoy analog playback and never consider another upgrade.

[ChairSpud]

Before you spend any money, why not see if too fast a speed is what's making you unhappy with your current TT. On the vinyengine site there is a downloadable printable strobe disc. Place a strobe disc on your P2 and under bright incandescent or fluorescent light see if your suspicions are correct. On the Rega, too fast a speed can easily be corrected by running electrical tape around the subplatter. The faster the speed, the more layers of tape you'll need.

If speed is ruled out as an issue, you may have a TT or cartridge setup problem. As you described, surface noise, skipping, brightness and twangy might all be symptoms of alignment or tracking issues. What method did you use to align your Grado and Goldring and could it be off? Did you balance the arm according to Rega directions each time a cartridge was mounted?

Dave

[Wayner]

ChairSpud is on to something I think.

The P2, Like my P3 with the RB-300 arm is not your standard 9" tonearm. The actual design length from stylus to tone arm centerline pivot is the mounting distance of 223 mm, the overhang of 17.2 mm, and the offset angle of 23 degrees, correspond closely to the values calculated using the Baerwald Peak Distortion Equivalence method, with IEC standard inner groove and outer groove radii of 60.325 mm and 146.05 mm, respectively. I would first try to measure your distances and see if you are in the ballpark. 223mm translates to 8.779" or about 1/32 more than 8 3/4". My Sumiko Blue point mounting screws are almost in the center of the slot, however, not all cartridge manufacturers have stylus to mounting hole distances the same. Rega's own upper level cartridges have the 3rd hole which locates the stylus right at the design point for proper alignment. I also think using the alignment card from www.enjoythemusic.com may not be the right tool for alignment.

Wayner

[Wayner]

Oh yea,

The skipping record sure sounds like incorrect anti-skating adjustment. I'd advance it a little more than the normal setting suggests. I use a bllank disc to set mine then I tweak it a little.

Wayner

[ChairSpud]

Interesting, I've allways used the Rega alignment jig or Stevenson null points on my Goldring Rega clone. Don't know why but I allways thought The Rega nulls were closer to Stevenson, but I could be wrong.  I've tried Baerwald and had used it for years but now prefer Stevenson on the Rega as it sounds better to me.

The skipping could also be an incorrectly balanced tonearm or turntable setting not level, or even a dirty or damaged stylus. Or too much dancin' 

Dave

[hartwerger]

Thanks for all the thoughts.   I will freely admit to any possible user error with the Grado.  When I installed the Grado, I had some idea of what I was doing, but had little experience.   The Goldring was less expensive than the Grado so I felt more free to experiment.   To align the cartridge, I used the alignment card that came with the Rega, but also tried a Denesen protractor.  I won't pretend to understand the different alignment methods (Baerwald, Stevenson and whatever else there may be), but would not hesitate to experiment with different methods if I was assured I wouldn't be hurting the cartridge.   I have shims for the tone arm to raise and lower VTA so I have a good idea of what works and doesn't work for the Goldring and the VTA on the Rega (and suited to my own tastes of course).  I've tried two methods for setting the VTF.  First, I followed Rega's instructions.  Then I found the Originlive instructions for setting the VTF on Regas which requires disabling the spring in the Rega dial and using my Shure VTF gauge.  I noticed dramatic improvements by using that latter method.   For sometime I've wanted to go back and revisit the Grado cartridge to see if there were any differences in performance by using the OriginLive method for the VTF.  I really can't remember what I did with the antiskate when I installed the GRado which is why I certainly would accept my own error for the complaints about the tracking.    The only question is when you have skipping errors do you set the antiskate higher or lower?  I know Wayner said to set it higher, but I swear I read an inmate post on the Asylum suggesting the opposite just a short time ago.  Aside from the skipping, there is also less surface noise with the Goldring compared to the Grado.  I don't know if that is the effect of their different stylus shapes or my own installation.  Anyway, thanks so much again.

[ChairSpud]

hartwerger,

If you use the Rega alignment card and the cartridge body is parallel to the card lines while the stylus set on the crosshairs, you should be in good shape. The Goldring should not need shims, I use a Goldring 1012 on one of my RB250s but don't use my Grado Gold as it hums. I expect a 2mm shim should do the job with the Grado. Sorry I can't help with VTF or antiskate on the P3 as I have RB250 arm, not the RB300 like yours, maybe Wayner or someone else can help you there.

Dave

[WGH]

Aside from the skipping, there is also less surface noise with the Goldring compared to the Grado.  I don't know if that is the effect of their different stylus shapes or my own installation.  Anyway, thanks so much again.

I use a Goldring 1042 and don't have very much surface noise either, must be the Fritz Gyger S stylus shape. VTA is more critical with this stylus, the bottom of the cartridge should be parallel with the record surface as a starting point.

Anyone who is bothered by surface noise, tics and pops should try out a 1042, though the price here in the US is not as cheap as it used to be. The cartridge is detailed without surface noise, what's not to love, it is also a perfect match with low mass tone arms.

Wayne

[TheChairGuy]

hartwerger,

Grado's are designed with a minimum of damping...the makers believe when you damp a cartridge internally, you also damp out the signal and music.  This is the primary reason why folks have microphony/hum issues with certain decks (including Rega's) and why they are such a bear to set-up right 

The London Decca's share this philosophy...all other cartridges are relatively overdamped (especially moving coils...they have to be, actually) and, thus, the clicks and pops don't resonate as demonstrably on into your ears. 

A long line or shibata styli, judicious use of damping (between headshell/body, fluid, or constrained layer) really takes the sting of clicks and pops from the Grado's.......and pretty much banishes it with rigorous cleaning of your records.

It's a lot to do for one cartridge - but I find the results to be quite worthwhile once you do.

John