[mike j]

I'm trying to decide on a FR speaker project for a tube amp and one for a chip amp. It seems the most popular are Fostex and Audio Nirvana, at least in my price range. A pair of drivers, along with decent enclosure plans, can be had from either of those vendors for around $100. Outside of the FR concept, I'm also interested in Pi Speakers. Those of you with experience with any of these, will you provide me some input to help in this decision? Thanks.
Mike

[ghpicard]

It all depends on what you expect from the speakers, your equipment (output power), your available space and also your woodworking skills.
The characteristics of ANs are more given to BR (bass reflex) enclosures, while the Fostex shine in BLH (back loaded horns). BLHs, are generally more complex to build than BRs (a box is a box).

Gastón

[doug s.]

It all depends on what you expect from the speakers, your equipment (output power), your available space and also your woodworking skills.
The characteristics of ANs are more given to BR (bass reflex) enclosures, while the Fostex shine in BLH (back loaded horns). BLHs, are generally more complex to build than BRs (a box is a box).

Gastón

what about plain horns?  i have a pair of fostex fe206e's in oris 150 horn's...  would switching to audio nirvana's have any positive effects?  also note that my speakers are eq'd w/a deqx dsp processor/x-over...

thanks,

doug s.

[Dmason]

Fostex.

Best bets are the FE103E, FE127/6E, The F165K is outstanding, truly, in a transmission line, this will yield a plain, just great sounding speaker for the dough.

If you can sport for alittle more, which I recommend, --->F108E-Sigma is outstanding, especially when relieved of bass duty, and sounds fantastic, in a BIB.    www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp  Click on the Fostex logo for builds and FRP's. If you can stretch a little bit further, the FE168E-Sigma is a whole lotta luv in the BIB as well. Pretty flat to 30Hz in a moderate sized room, and this is absolutely a full range horn speaker.

 A wideband driver of these types, in the folded pipe/horn or BIB, + a little tube amp is the audio equivalent of the loaves and the fishes. Strongly recommended A++

[chrisby]

Another enthusiastic vote for Fostex - a comprehensive range of drivers, from which suitable candidates for virtually any domestic can be found. Just don't rely on their published specs.

As all have said, the recommendation for exactly which driver/enclosure design might be best for you will vary significantly. It's probably fair to say that independent of your taste in amplifiers or program material, the room and your listening levels will have a lot to say about the matter.   for example I wouldn't try something like MJK's OB project or any of the Scottmoose Spawn family of MTM double mouth horns in a 200sqft basement cave, conversely an FF85K in a little BR box would sound like a mantle radio in a grand salon.



Loaves and fishes,  - that's cute ...   not quite all things to all people, but can certainly satisfy most of your listening hunger most of the time.

and once you enter through the polka-dot door, things might never be the same

[Scottmoose]

It all depends on what you expect from the speakers, your equipment (output power), your available space and also your woodworking skills.
The characteristics of ANs are more given to BR (bass reflex) enclosures, while the Fostex shine in BLH (back loaded horns). BLHs, are generally more complex to build than BRs (a box is a box).

Hmm. I beg to differ here actually. Ignoring the CSA / DD claims for the AN drivers, if you look at their parameters, then the 6 1/2in - 8in AN units at least are no more or less suitable for BR loading than the Fostex FExx6E series of drivers, which themselves aren't generally ideal for this sort of cab. without some form of Eq (their FExx7E stablemates are generally a better bet for a reflex box than either their stablemates or AN rivals).

Anyway, I too would be inclined to go for the Fostex units -they seem to have an edge in sound quality over the ANs, and there isn't a huge gulf in price between them. That said, the AN drivers are by no means poor -the ones I've heard have certainly been more than acceptable. Where Audio Nirvana score IMO are with the models that have no direct Fostex et al equivalents: their cast frame units, and their 10in & 12in drivers. Of course, as ever, YMMV.

[rw101]

For what it is worth, I have a pair of Audio Nirvana Super 8 drivers that I have been running for a year in ported cabinets. The drivers are well made. Everything is very heavy duty, and the magnets are massive. They also look good. I got David Dicks to send them to me in the UK after chatting on the phone. I don’t agree with his assessments of these speakers versus other designs, but that is his opinion and he was very straight and efficient. Plus they were a bargain.

They have typical full range driver characteristics, with strengths and weaknesses. The uncoloured accuracy and in-the-room immediacy of the sound is wonderful. But my ears tell me that the frequency response is uneven. Some midrange frequencies are subdued: it can sound as if the mix is slightly wrong. The bass is fair. It is important to remember that the whole sound gets much much better after they have been running for six months – the bass fills out and the characteristic full range harshness diminishes. Adding some acoustic foam to the cabinets and some sorbothane strips where the driver frames meet the cabinet face also made a big improvement by cutting out cabinet resonance. 

I use these in my office driven by a Norh valve amp, a Pioneer tuner running out of an old SX-750 receiver, and an old Cambridge Audio D300 CD player. The sound is not like a conventional speaker array. It is analytical. It is best on analogue recordings, especially chamber music or small scale jazz. You can just about hear Miles Davis’ cigarette burning. But something large scale like electronic dance sounds pretty rough. It’s an interesting sound, but a bit hard and a bit shrill. Nothing that would make me want to change the big Tannoy dual concentrics on my main system. But at the same time nothing would make me go back to speaker arrays – point source is clearly best. If I was doing the project again I would probably go for the Standard 8, not the Super 8, as that might take the edge off the raspiness. 

To sum up, the upside is cheap clean super-accurate sound. The downside is uneven response and a residual harshness. I’m keeping mine.

[doug s.]

rw101 - interesting post, thanks.  i am curious if you have ever toyed w/using a deqx pdc 2.6?  how it might address the perceived frequency anomalies you mention.  as i posted earlier, i have oris h150 horns w/fostex fe206e drivers, & i am using a deqx.  i am wondering if i would get any different (better?) results w/the a/n drivers...

best,

doug s.

[rw101]

I did think about putting in some kind of filter but I'm lazy and in the end I came round to the sound as it is (which incidentally continues to improve). I tried fitting the drivers in modified Lowther Acousta horn cabinets but frankly it didn't make much difference, apart from winding up the bass, and lack of bass isn't really a big problem with the AN's once they (or your ears) are run in. Every system has its downside. 

[ghpicard]

i have oris h150 horns w/fostex fe206e drivers

Doug, did you try putting FE108ESigmas into the Oris ? It is one of my (thousand) projects to build a small tractrix with an FE108ESigma and would like to know how would they behave...

Gastón

[doug s.]

i have oris h150 horns w/fostex fe206e drivers

Doug, did you try putting FE108ESigmas into the Oris ? It is one of my (thousand) projects to build a small tractrix with an FE108ESigma and would like to know how would they behave...

Gastón

hi gaston,

the oris 150 takes an 8" driver; smaller drivers won't work...

doug s.

[chrisby]

snip
They have typical full range driver characteristics, with strengths and weaknesses. The uncoloured accuracy and in-the-room immediacy of the sound is wonderful. But my ears tell me that the frequency response is uneven. Some midrange frequencies are subdued: it can sound as if the mix is slightly wrong. The bass is fair. It is important to remember that the whole sound gets much much better after they have been running for six months – the bass fills out and the characteristic full range harshness diminishes. Adding some acoustic foam to the cabinets and some sorbothane strips where the driver frames meet the cabinet face also made a big improvement by cutting out cabinet resonance. 
But at the same time nothing would make me go back to speaker arrays – point source is clearly best. If I was doing the project again I would probably go for the Standard 8, not the Super 8, as that might take the edge off the raspiness. 

snip

To sum up, the upside is cheap clean super-accurate sound. The downside is uneven response and a residual harshness. I’m keeping mine.

Have you considered EnABL treatment?

[SET Man]

Fostex.

Best bets are the FE103E, FE127/6E, The F165K is outstanding, truly, in a transmission line, this will yield a plain, just great sounding speaker for the dough.

If you can sport for alittle more, which I recommend, --->F108E-Sigma is outstanding, especially when relieved of bass duty, and sounds fantastic, in a BIB.    www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp  Click on the Fostex logo for builds and FRP's. If you can stretch a little bit further, the FE168E-Sigma is a whole lotta luv in the BIB as well. Pretty flat to 30Hz in a moderate sized room, and this is absolutely a full range horn speaker.

 A wideband driver of these types, in the folded pipe/horn or BIB, + a little tube amp is the audio equivalent of the loaves and the fishes. Strongly recommended A++

Hey!
   
    I've heard Nirvana drivers. But I do have Fostex 167E in my TQWT cab... pretty much like BIB but upside down.

    And I love them!



    Yes, I really do!

   I agreed with Dmason about having these type of driver in a T-line, BIB, TQWT, horn and in similar cabs.

  Sure you could stuff some of these drivers in BR boxes but you ain't going to hear what they can really do.... of course if you have a limited space than that is another story.

Take care,
Buddy

[rw101]

Just browsed Doug's gallery. So I am sure he will understand when I say that using FRs like the Audio Nirvanas are like running a Ducati. No Ducati ever runs smoothly right through the rev range -- but they are still more fun than other bikes.

[JLM]

I assume you're speaking of $100 USD per driver (still doesn't leave a ton of options and will keep expectations at the shallower end of the pool). 

I tracked Pi for awhile and heard 3 of them.  Not aware that they offered FR (I prefer the term extended range to avoid quibbling) drivers.  The most impressive Pi I heard was the little 2Pi.  The bass got ugly fast in the floorstanders I heard that Wayne himself had setup.  Everything Pi is BR.

Opinions of David Dicks vary widely.  There are less contraversal guys to deal with, so why bother?  If I say much more there could be legal threats.

Pioneer sells an 8 incher with a whizzer for $20 each.  Having trimming the whizzer back some it can provide a cost competitive sound in TWQT.

But Fostex is the obvious choice for inexpensive extended range drivers.  Have heard plenty of the 4 - 5 inch drivers.  They all lack the bottom 2 octaves.  Their 6 inchers are nice, but still lack the bottom octave.  I've heard the 8 inch FE206E sound good in a 0.75 cu. ft. sealed standmount. 

Bob Brines offers plans, pre-cut panels, unfinished cabinets, or completed speakers options for BR standmounts or transmission line floorstanders for FE167E, FE206E, and FE207E.  Solid designs and Bob is good to deal with.

[doug s.]

Just browsed Doug's gallery. So I am sure he will understand when I say that using FRs like the Audio Nirvanas are like running a Ducati. No Ducati ever runs smoothly right through the rev range -- but they are still more fun than other bikes.

hey!!!  my ol' duc darmah runs smooth from idle all the way to red-line.  as did a mid-'90's ss/sp & monster i had the pleasure of riding.   

i still wonder about using a/n instead of the fostex fe206e in my oris horns, or if it would even matter, as my deqx will be handling any frequency anomalies...

doug s.

[doug s.]

Just browsed Doug's gallery. So I am sure he will understand when I say that using FRs like the Audio Nirvanas are like running a Ducati. No Ducati ever runs smoothly right through the rev range -- but they are still more fun than other bikes.

hey!!!  my ol' duc darmah runs smooth from idle all the way to red-line.  as did a mid-'90's ss/sp & monster i had the pleasure of riding.   

i still wonder about using a/n instead of the fostex fe206e in my oris horns, or if it would even matter, as my deqx will be handling any frequency anomalies...

doug s.

[ghpicard]

i still wonder about using a/n instead of the fostex fe206e in my oris horns, or if it would even matter, as my deqx will be handling any frequency anomalies...

*I* would rather start with a smooth curve than iron one to make it better. Or if I had to go to a non-linear one, I would risk only for an generally accepted better one that had other treats to offer, like more sensitivity (i.e., a Lowther) and not on one that's theoretically equivalent.
I also would rather make a linear amp with no or few feedback than a high gain highly nonlinear one with lots of feedback to iron out nonlinearities.
Of course your DEQX does not work on a feedback loop, but frequency equalization always come with phase shift and you have to balance that trade-off.
As always, it's a matter of personal taste and opinion

Gastón

[doug s.]

i still wonder about using a/n instead of the fostex fe206e in my oris horns, or if it would even matter, as my deqx will be handling any frequency anomalies...

*I* would rather start with a smooth curve than iron one to make it better. Or if I had to go to a non-linear one, I would risk only for an generally accepted better one that had other treats to offer, like more sensitivity (i.e., a Lowther) and not on one that's theoretically equivalent.
I also would rather make a linear amp with no or few feedback than a high gain highly nonlinear one with lots of feedback to iron out nonlinearities.
Of course your DEQX does not work on a feedback loop, but frequency equalization always come with phase shift and you have to balance that trade-off.
As always, it's a matter of personal taste and opinion

Gastón

gaston, i understand what you're saying, & i agree.  which is why i wonder if the a/n drivers are more linear/better than the fostex, right out of the box.  and there's a couple tweaks i can do tho the fostex that will make them more linear, according to those who have engineered them.  (ie: phase plugs, & adding a sorround.)

re: lowthers, thy guy i got my horns from is using lowthers in oris horns, & he said that they're maybe 5-10% better than the fostex, whatever that means.  as far as efficiency goes, since i am able to blast myself out of the room w/5wpc, i really do not know if it's worth paying ten times more than what fostex drivers cost, for more efficiency, & a possible 5-10% "improvement".  especially when it seems that lowthers are, if anything, even more non-linear than the fostex's!  and, especially since i use the deqx...

also, re: the deqx, according to the mfr, it reduces phase shift, not increases it.  all i know is i found its ability to eq both speakers & room to far outweigh any negatives it brings to the table.  before, i was using a marchand x-over, tho i was using it only for crossing subs to main speakers.  altho excellent & transparent in this application, i still prefer the deqx...

regards,

doug s.

[rw101]

Doug

I would not over-emphasise the uneven quality. The listening experience is determined more by the rather stark hardness of the AN sound, which certainly takes a bit of getting used to. But when all is said and done we are still talking about a $150 deal. You could spend five times that in the local store and not come close.  

If you were just around the corner we could swap drivers around and find out. Perhaps you could tune up my 900 Superlight while you are it.

Richard