[Images]

Earlier this year I posted in Audio Central in order to get advice about a speaker that would be well suited to my musical tastes.  I listen almost exclusively to orchestral music.  If I remember correctly, I got 11 pages of replies.  Of the contenders, offerings from Jim Salk and from SP Technologies particularly caught my interest.  The Veracity QW was first mentioned, then the HT3.  I corresponded with Jim and we concluded that for my tastes, the HT3 was the way to go.  I still believe it is, but I must admit, I am becoming financially intimidated.  Originally I wanted to stay below $4K.  The lead page for the HT3 lists the unit as starting at at $4495.  OK, I was willing to stretch another 500 bucks.  Now, I realize that with a veneer it comes to $5295.  (If you follow a link you discover that With "just paint" it lists for $4895 -- a $400 price increase.)  $5295 is about a third of my kid's private school tuition.  As a family man with a budget, unfortunately for me this figure crosses the line between "good provider" and "self-indulgence."

So, what to do?  OK, wait till one comes up used.  Yes, that is a possibility, but not a real attractive one.  The models available in the $3Kish range include the QW and possibly the yet unnamed Open Baffle.  I could wait for the OB model.  I once had some Alon IIs that I really liked.  If these are similar, I think I could be happy.  Jim kinda talked me out of the QWs, but I have to wonder how the QWs and the OB model compare.  Of course, as yet nobody knows, right?  Then there's the new Song Towers, also a TL-like design, as are the QWs.  How do the Song Towers and the QWs compare, I wonder?

I feel like the HT3s are the no-compromise solution, and everything else is.  Well, wait, certainly there are some SP Tech advocates out there who would not agree with that.  I could also consider the SP Techs minis.  (It is worth mentioning that delivery of the Minis has been problematic, which the designer now says is corrected.)  Perhaps down the road I could add the servo controlled subs that GR-research offers as a DIY upgrade to the SP Minis....

To sum it up:
   1)  Un-named OB design vs. Veracity QW
   2)  Veracity QW vs. Song Towers
   3)  Any of these "Salks" vs. SP Techs Minis (perhaps w/ GR servo subs to follow)

Ok, chew on that folks, and spit out anything you like.  In other words, I value you opinions.  Let me know them.

For reference I should mention that I now use a two-way design (vintage '99 or so) from BESL Engineering.  This was a kit using Scan Speak 8545K drivers with the 9500 tweeter in an MTM configuration.  Specs can be seen here:  http://www.bambergaudio.com/s45k.shtml.  Also, I am inclined toward the offerings from these two firms because I believe these products would provide an articlate view of my orchestal "musicscapes."
   

[Images]

Oh, I forgot, there is one other option to consider.  I could get the HT1s now and then upgrade them down the road with the DIY servo subs from GR Research, or even do it the other way around.  This might be having my cake and eating it too.  The HT1s have the same driver compliment for mids and highs as the HT3s.  Of course, I would be missing the crossover that comes with the HT3s.  So, I have to wonder if this is a viable option.  Any body have any experience marrying the HT1s with a non-Salk sub??? 

[bpape]

I've not heard the HT1's.  I've heard the ST's, the HT3's, and the new OB (under show conditions) so I can't comment directly on the HT1's vs the others.  I will just say that from what I heard, the new OB's show a LOT of promise.  I found them very easy to listen to, very dymanic, very natural and relaxed yet able to pump it out when asked.  I'm looking forward to hearing them again.

Bryan

[Rocket]

I had the same issue as you in regard to Wine taste with Beer money.  I live in Western Australia and shipping a pair of speakers half way round the world is pretty expensive and I had to factor in this cost of purchasing from the US.

How big is the room that you intend to use the speakers in?

I had a couple of discussions with Jim and I eventually ordered a pair of HT2's that reportedly go down to 40hz.  My current speakers go down to 40hz and apart lacking a little bit of definition go deep enough for me.  A full blown pair of HT2's sell for $3600us and I am getting them veneered in bosse pommele satin finish.

If you have a look at the components that are used IN Jim's speakers they do set themselves apart from most other manufacturer's.  Buying direct has the added benefit of cutting the middle man out and reportedly 40% of the value of the speaker goes into the components that are used.  A negative of buying direct is that generally you probably aren't going to have an opportunity to hear the product prior to purchase.

I'm sure that the SP Tech Mini's provide great sound quality and apparently they use mundorf caps and a top line scanspeak tweeter. They do, however, use a mid priced mid/bass driver which is the same that is in my current speakers and I found that the bass does lack a little bit of definition.  Apart from this minor point I'm sure the mini's would be great sounding but I prefer a larger size speaker and thus the HT2 choice.

I have a pair of nuforce s9 speakers, yes they do use cheaper xover components and tweeter, but I still think I have reasonable experience with this type of design.  In the past I have used a pair of speakers that used a ribbon tweeter and the difference in this type of tweeter design is that it sounds very natural and appealing.  The reason I ordered a pair of HT2's is that they use a phy ribbon tweeter, world class drivers and the finish is excellent.

Jim also builds another speaker called the v3 that reported goes a little deeper than the HT2.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Rod

[fsimms]

Any body have any experience marrying the HT1s with a non-Salk sub???

 

I have the HT1's with a SVS Sub.   It works very well.   I wouldn't go that route as it requires the extra cost of stands and sub.  This brings it at least in the bracket of Salks with better bass.  I wasn't able to integrate the sub well until I got a TACT preamp that had internal crossover with delays.   I think I am near the quality of the HT3's but I have spent much more money than the HT3's would have cost. 

I have heard good reports about the V3's in sounding similar to the HT3's.  I haven't heard them. Jim could give you good info about the sound comparison.

For orchestral music, I wouldn't consider the SongTowers to be in the same class.  The Veracity series is so much more magical with orchestral music. 

After hearing the SongTowers improve in sound when I used it with my TACT and sub,  I think you get a good improvement in sound when you offload the midrange driver from doing bass duty.

[Double Ugly]

I'm sure that the SP Tech Mini's provide great sound quality and apparently they use mundorf caps and a top line scanspeak tweeter. They do, however, use a mid priced mid/bass driver which is the same that is in my current speakers and I found that the bass does lack a little bit of definition.  Apart from this minor point I'm sure the mini's would be great sounding but I prefer a larger size speaker and thus the HT2 choice.

I might've missed it, but I've yet to read a review of the Minis wherein the owner described the bass as lacking in definition.  Quite the opposite, in fact, due in part to the midrange/bass driver's specifications which allow for it's use in SP Technology speakers.

The price of the parts isn't the be all, end all of how something sounds.  Sometimes it's the design and implementation.

[JLM]

I too heard the Song Towers, HT3's, and the new open baffles under show conditions (12 ft x 15 ft room).  IMO the open baffles sounded best, even though the other speakers had the better electronics.  All had the same "house sound", so its a matter of application and personal taste.  But as I recall you have a large room with large windows behind the speakers, so I'd be leery of open baffles (due to the windows).  Again, as I recall, you wanted a low visual impacting solution and the open baffles are wider than the HT3.

Like Omega speakers here at AC, a large portion of what you pay for with Salk speakers is the man and his outstanding woodworking.  And either company offers high value.  I suppose the question then would be, how important is that to you?

[Images]

Thanks, JLM, for your encouraging words.  I LOVE the looks of the Salk as-yet-to-be-name OBs.  It was something the size of a Maggie 1.6 that was an issue in my earlier post.  Also, there was some confusion about the configuration of my living room.  The current BESL 4.5s are out from the "solid" back wall by about 10 inches, making the front baffles about 27 inches or so from that wall.  The WAF on this isn't great, but I get away with it.  There are no windows behind the speakers, and my listening position is an overstuffed couch with a decorative Hawaiian quilt hung on the wall behind the couch.  Not audiophile-approved room conditioning, but it does kill some reflections while maintaining domestic tranquility.  The only windows are in the open lanai (patio) to the right of the speakers.  That glass is 11 feet outside the right speaker.  The kitchen wall is 8 feet to the left of the left speaker.  I sit 9.5 feet from the speaker line.  I feel I've got a pretty good room when all is said and done.

Again, the OBs really intrigue me.  The price point I am expecting to be around $4K, which I can justify.  I still remember the Marchisotto Alon IIs I had.  I've always regretted selling them.  They certainly filled the room (at another house), and had a good bottom end from an 8 inch wool woofer, if I remember correctly.  I suspect these Open Baffles from Jim will better them -- after all the design and drivers are about 15 years more current.  My only bias is I wish the OB had a ribbon tweeter rather than the Morel dome... but I'm pretty sure Jim knows better than I do. 

Oh, and as far as the WAF goes, these things are so gorgeous that only thing she will ask is if she can put some potted orchids on them.

Lastly, these look fairly tube friendly.  The more I think about these speakers, the better I like them.  I live nearly 6000 miles from Oakland Michigan, but I want to get on a plane and go listen to them.

[bpape]

I'm not generally a huge fan of the Morel dome over the SS.  I will say that the OB is probably the best implementation of that tweeter I've heard.  I don't know if it's the variable edge spacing from the baffle, the xover design, magic pixie dust, or some combination of the above but it works.

Bryan

[jsalk]

Images -

I don't recall our specific coorespondence with regard to the HT3's vs. the QW's (I don't have any emails from "Images").  So I don't know why I would have tried to talk you out of the QW's.  They are an extremely nice speaker - probabaly my all-time favorite 2-way speaker and great for archestral music.  Perhaps the context of our conversation was in relation to the HT3's and there is no contest there.

That said, the OB design (as of yet unnamed...sorry, I'll get to it soon), just may be the speaker for you.  It likely will fit your original budget.  But there is one, as of yet, unannounced feature that may seal the deal so to speak.

The original OB design introduced at AK Fest last month used a Morel dome tweeter.  I was, and still am, VERY pleased with this design.  And most people who heard it seemed to be impressed as well.

After the successful debut of the design, Jeff Bagby and I talked about where to take it from here.  Jeff had worked on the Pharos design on our web site and asked if I thought it would be worth doing a version of this OB design using the G2 ribbon tweeter.  I said yes and Jeff worked up the crossover modifications to implement the G2.

We are currently building a few pairs of these speakers for customers.  At least one of these pairs (and perhaps all of them) will have the G2 ribbon installed.

I think the G2/PHL/Lambda design should offer a price/performance ratio that will be very difficult to top.  And I think this design should be right up there toward the top of the list of speakers you might want to consider.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

[laserman]

Images,

Would you be so kind as to shed a little more light on what your current system using the BESL 4.5s is lacking in the way of soundstage, detail, articulation, or whatever?

What electronics will you be using upsteam...up to and including source?

Do you have a preference to either a floorstanding or standmounted speaker?

Any other preferences?

Lou

[Images]

Images,

Would you be so kind as to shed a little more light on what your current system using the BESL 4.5s is lacking in the way of soundstage, detail, articulation, or whatever?

What electronics will you be using upsteam...up to and including source?

Do you have a preference to either a floorstanding or standmounted speaker?

Channel Islands Audio D100 mono blocs
Modwright SWL 9.0SE linestage (non-tube regulated version)
Tube Research Labs modified Sony DVP-NS900V
MAC Power Cables and ICs

I prefer a floorstanding speaker.  I admit I am leery of a satellite / subwoofer configuration because so many have posted about integration problems, as did fsimms above.  Thanks for asking.  For my orchestral tastes I think I could stand a more articulate rendering of the score than what I now get from the Besls.  The other thing is that I need to crank these up a bit more than I would like before they seem to really "gel" and present the full substance of the music.  On a violin sonata or a four or five piece blue grass band this is less noticeable.  I dunno.  Maybe this is a function of 86ish dB sensitivity. 

[Images]

Images -

Perhaps the context of our conversation was in relation to the HT3's and there is no contest there.

The original OB design introduced at AK Fest last month used a Morel dome tweeter.  I was, and still am, VERY pleased with this design.  And most people who heard it seemed to be impressed as well.

....Jeff worked up the crossover modifications to implement the G2.

We are currently building a few pairs of these speakers for customers.  At least one of these pairs (and perhaps all of them) will have the G2 ribbon installed.

I hope this helps.

- Jim

Yah, that helps alot.  Where do you want me to send the money!?  Though I am reluctant to buy speakers both unheard and unseen, it's not like you don't have a good track record, Jim.  I would like people who have heard them to chime in though, and voice an opinion or two.  Aurally, how do they compare with other OB designs? 

[Images]

Jim,

I forgot to ask.  Do you have any specs yet available for the OBs?  Or, if nothing else, can you give me the physical dimensions (so I in my mind's eye I can "see" what, if any, furniture needs to be nudged.)  Ya know, while posing questions I should ask if you currently have any customers in Hawaii... and if so, will they allow me to contact them? 

[saisunil]

Channel Islands Audio D100 mono blocs
Modwright SWL 9.0SE linestage (non-tube regulated version)
Tube Research Labs modified Sony DVP-NS900V
MAC Power Cables and ICs

Nice system! I happen to own battery modded TRL Sony DVP-NS900V.
At some point you may also want to consider changing the ICs (I have a limited expereience with MAC cables - I still have one of the PCs.

Good Luck

[Images]

ote]

Nice system! I happen to own battery modded TRL Sony DVP-NS900V.
At some point you may also want to consider changing the ICs (I have a limited expereience with MAC cables - I still have one of the PCs.

Thanks, but no thanks, I just switched over to the Mac Palladiums, Mac UltraSilver+, and several Mac HC Sound Pipoes (PCs.)  The staging on my system went way up as a result.  This definitely falls into the "if it ain't broke" category.

[asull2k]

Frankly I think you need to go out and hear a bit more so you can develop your own tastes.. this includes the Salk products.  Most of the non-Salk speakers mentioned are all over the board.. they aren't even close to each other in design or sound.  And ALL speakers have some sort of compromise; it's the nature of this hobby that there is no such thing as perfection (and the numbers prove it).  So if you're looking for your personal final speaker, you've really got to hear it for yourself.. nobody else can make that decision for you.  Does it really make sense to save up tuition-worthy $$$ for something that a stranger likes?  If I had bought every speaker based on favorable formal/informal reviews, I'd own every single speaker on the planet by now.. and thrown away 99.9999% of them.

[koiman]

Images,
I am running a system almost the same as yours except for the DVD Player..
Channel Island D-200 Mono's, Modwright 9.0 SE not tube rectified, Salk HT3 Speakers and Denon 3910 DVD Exemplar modified and the system sounds fantastic.
Lee

[laserman]

Images,

That is a nice system and I second this quote:

Frankly I think you need to go out and hear a bit more so you can develop your own tastes.. this includes the Salk products.  Most of the non-Salk speakers mentioned are all over the board.. they aren't even close to each other in design or sound.  And ALL speakers have some sort of compromise; it's the nature of this hobby that there is no such thing as perfection (and the numbers prove it).  So if you're looking for your personal final speaker, you've really got to hear it for yourself.. nobody else can make that decision for you.  Does it really make sense to save up tuition-worthy $$$ for something that a stranger likes?  If I had bought every speaker based on favorable formal/informal reviews, I'd own every single speaker on the planet by now.. and thrown away 99.9999% of them.

Lee, you also have a nice system and even though you point out some electronic similarities you missed two critical items - your listening room and whether you are using acoustic treatments.

Peace,
Lou

[koiman]

laserman,
I have the Eight Nerve stuff 10 rectangles and 4 triangles version 3 and the listening room is my family room that is 12.6 x 29 feet.