Poll

Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?

Record 1 is not a pipe organ.
0 (0%)
Record 2 is not a pipe organ.
2 (33.3%)
Record 3 is not a pipe organ.
1 (16.7%)
I don't know!
3 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: 28 May 2008, 04:12 pm

Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?

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Hififreak

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Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« on: 21 May 2008, 04:12 pm »

jethro

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2008, 10:11 pm »
I'm confused HiFiFreak.

MacAngus

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2008, 11:18 pm »
If the question is: which of the three Saint-Saens recordings of the "Organ" Symphony is not a pipe organ but an electronic organ, I'd say #3. but, I have no way to listen on my system, just my cheap computer speakers.

Wind Chaser

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #3 on: 24 May 2008, 12:04 am »
Can't tell listening thru the computer.

#1 is a very nice piece, a bit melancholy, but very nice.

ooheadsoo

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #4 on: 24 May 2008, 07:10 pm »
I don't really know how to tell, and most of the organ in this passage is really low in register and level, or masked by the violins.  Isn't this the one that has the 16hz pedal tone?  If I had to guess, I'd say #2 because I like this mix the least for off axis listening, which is what I usually do :duh:.  Well, more importantly, it also seems to have much less reedy timbre than the other two recordings, as if 1 and 3 have more stops pulled.  However, the overall recording has that muffled midrange back of the hall signature.  Well, on the basis that 1 and 3 sound like they have more similar stops pulled and 2 has a different sound, I'll choose 2 as electric.

philipp

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2008, 09:39 pm »
I'm voting #2 since the organ doesn't sound like it's coming from any particular place/space, just an unnatural, all-enveloping sound in the recording. There's also some weird anomalies or artifacts that are catching my ear in #2. I'm not pro enough to provide a coherent explanation, but it's enough to vote #2 as "not a pipe organ".

ooheadsoo

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #6 on: 26 May 2008, 06:29 pm »
I didn't listen for that since if it was a large pipe organ that ran around the entire room, the imaging could certainly be "off."  Meanwhile, speakers for a digital organ would probably be put in the front of the stage...at least, that was my assumption.

Hififreak

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2008, 06:34 pm »
1:
Dallas Symphony Orchestra
Location:  Eugene McDermott Hall te Dallas Texas U.S.A.
Organ: Lay Family Concert Organ.



One of the largest mechanical concert organs ever built, this 4,535-pipe monster dominates the stage of the Eugene McDermott Concert Hall
Recorded in 1994.

2:
Orchestra de l’Opera Bastille
Organist: Michael Matthes
Conductor: Myung-Whun Chung.
Organ: Allen

Allen Organ Company, formed in 1939 by Jerome Markowitz, is located in Macungie, Pennsylvania. It is one of the world's largest builders of electronic organs. Allen introduced the world's first digital musical instrument in 1971(IR-100 Award). In 2004, the Smithsonian Institution recognized the significance of this technology by acquiring the first Allen digital organ for its collection. Since 1939 Allen has installed electronic instruments world-wide. Today Allen builds classical digital and combination digital and pipe organs, as well as digital theatre organs.
Recorded in 1991.

3:
Symphony Orchestra Montreal
Organist: Peter Hurford
Conductor: Charles Dutoit
Organ: Eusèbe Brodeur
Lokatie: St. Eustache te Montreal.

Construit à l’origine par Eusèbe Brodeur, l’orgue était à traction mécanique et sa tuyauterie prenait place dans un seul buffet situé au milieu de la tribune.
Recorded in 1982.



MacAngus

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #8 on: 30 May 2008, 06:49 am »
Very interesting. I will have to look for the recordings from Dallas and Paris. It's funny, I picked #3 and I have that recording of Dutoit in Montreal it's one of my favorite performances and a great recording for testing audio equipment, especially low frequencies and dynamics. (guess I need better computer speakers). The forth movement of the piece is the real power test of a good system, plus it's beautiful and uplifting music. I would recommend the recording by Charles Dutoit and the Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal, of Camille Saint-Saens, Symphony No.3. It's available on the budget label "eloquence" a Decca recording from 1983, or better still if you ever get a chance to hear it live it's one of those works, (in the right concert hall or cathedral) that you just don't hear it but feel all through your body.

ooheadsoo

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #9 on: 30 May 2008, 07:08 am »
It really sounds as if #2 doesn't have the brass and woodwind stops pulled.  Is the difference between a electric and pipe that big, or is it the stops?

Hififreak

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #10 on: 31 May 2008, 07:22 am »
The forth movement of the piece is the real power test of a good system, plus it's beautiful and uplifting music. ...........

1
Dallas Symphony Orchestra
Location:  Eugene McDermott Hall te Dallas Texas U.S.A.
Organ: Lay Family Concert Organ.

2
Orchestra de l’Opera Bastille
Organist: Michael Matthes
Conductor: Myung-Whun Chung.

3
Symphony Orchestra Montreal
Organist: Peter Hurford
Conductor: Charles Dutoit


Imperial

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #11 on: 31 May 2008, 10:14 am »
It must be recording number one, 1 as it lacks the "back of the wall reverberation created by multiple pipes breathing deep notes.
So number one is electric! This was heard clearly over a normal laptop! (yeah...  but that's what I used to asses this with so.. let'
s see..)
Track number one does not have "air shudder" in the deep notes one can also call it.

Edit: OK I see I was wrong there but I wanted to try to guess without peeking first. Track 2 is one good electric organ!!!
Over a laptop you really can't tell this obviously.
It seems that on track one the room is so large that the "shudder" reverberation is so low in frequency that you just don't
hear it on a wee laptop speaker.
Uhm, I guess this goes to show the importance of low frequency ability in organ lovers systems...

Never mind the sillyness of my post here. I really tried to hear it via a laptop just to see if it was possible... it wasn't!

Imperial
« Last Edit: 31 May 2008, 10:35 am by Imperial »

Wind Chaser

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #12 on: 1 Jun 2008, 06:18 am »
It must be recording number one...

Edit: OK I see I was wrong there but I wanted to try to guess without peeking first. Track 2 is one good electric organ!!!   Over a laptop you really can't tell this obviously.

You need to get a better laptop. :lol:

ooheadsoo

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #13 on: 1 Jun 2008, 06:24 am »
An electric organ, afaik, just uses speakers to make sound, so there's no reason for it to lack any reverb of any type.  It's still sound generated inside a concert hall, not directly plugged into a mixing/recording console or close mic'd like a studio recording.

FredT300B

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #14 on: 1 Jun 2008, 01:25 pm »
I'm afraid this isn't the best choice of material for a pipe/digital organ comparison. In each example only a few flute stops are pulled, and these are largely masked by the orchestral strings. A solo organ recording of a large instrument with all the stops drawn would be a much better example, but even then I doubt anybody would be able to tell the difference between a pipe organ and a well designed and implemented digital/electonic instrument.

When Allen first introduced the digital electronic organ in the 1970's the difference between a pipe organ and a comparable size Allen digital organ was immediately obvious, even if only a few stops were pulled. Listening to the pipe organ one would hear several completely independent windblown pipes sounding, each slightly out of phase with the others, each having its own characteristic attack sound (the "ch" sound organbuilders call chiff), its own randomly variable continuous sound caused by random changes in the wind mechanism, and its own decay sound. With the Allen, when a key was depressed all the stops that were drawn started their sound with a unified thud, followed by a monotonous unvarying sustained tone, and ending with a guillotine-quick silence when the key was released. To add insult to injury, as additional stops were drawn all the sounds eminated from a single dac and were fed through one amp to one speaker, resulting in an increasing level of im distortion that caused the organ to sound synthetic and opaque. Anybody with a small SET amp can imitate this sound by playing a recording of a full organ and turning up the volume until the sound becomes heavily distorted.

Today's better digital organs are very different. Typically, a separate dac is used to originate the sound for every one or two stops. This sound is then fed through a separate amp and speaker system, causing minimal im distortion. Today's organ dacs are more sophisticated, producing an accurate attack, sustained tone, random variations, wind sound, and decay. I recently attended an organ recital on a new Rodgers three manual organ, and if I hadn't known it was a digital organ I would have assumed it was a pipe organ with the pipes hidden behind a screen.

Here are a few examples to demonstrate the differences:

First, the worst of the worst, a Bach Toccata performend on a pre-digital Hammond organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PiNecvAws4

Second, a small budget priced analog (pre-digital) organ. Notice the individual stop combinations don't sound very convincing, and toward the end as more stops are drawn it begins to sound even more like an electronic organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xioxm8CnJPg

A small contemporary digital organ. Notice the individual stops sound reasonably convincing compared to the previous examples and the full organ toward the end doesn't sound too congested, but it still doesn't sound like a pipe organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ObLhCaHyA

Example of a larger Rodgers digital instrument that I could easily mistake for a pipe organ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnGLjKv1MSo

Example of a large pipe organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FXoyr_FyFw

And finally, the master of 20th century stylized hymn playing, Virgil Fox, accompanying the congregation on the very large pipe organ at the Riverside church in NYC. Not a good recording, but you'll still feel the majesty of this famous instrument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSbNgX1_-SA&feature=related
« Last Edit: 1 Jun 2008, 04:29 pm by FredT300B »

Hififreak

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #15 on: 1 Jun 2008, 05:26 pm »
A Lowrey   :wink:

and two beautiful pieces of music of Cesar Franck, played by Jeanne Demessieux (1921-1968) at the 1846 Cavaille-Coll in La Madeleine, Paris.  Recorded in 1959!



C. Franck, 1

C. Franck, 2



« Last Edit: 1 Jun 2008, 06:07 pm by Hififreak »

JohnR

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #16 on: 2 Jun 2008, 12:43 pm »
Example of a large pipe organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FXoyr_FyFw

Sydney Town Hall! Unfortunately closed at present :(

Hififreak

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Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #17 on: 2 Jun 2008, 03:24 pm »
One of my favorites: The Lost Chord by Arthur Sullivan.

Virgil Fox playes on the organ of the Riverside Church, New York (1958)
 





Carlo Curly playes on the Wanamaker organ (2006)




The Lost Chord played by a dear friend, Ruud Kuipers.

I made this record myself with a simple Samsung MP3 player and you can hear my footsteps at the beginning.
It’s played on his Johannus organ.



Large photo

Ruud died last December at the age of fifty-two.   :cry:

Wind Chaser

Re: Test your set. Which record is not a pipe organ?
« Reply #18 on: 2 Jun 2008, 05:40 pm »



Oooooooh..... That looks like a lot of fun!   :drool: :lol: