Emerald Physics in a "bad" room

mca · « **on:** 20 May 2008, 05:59 am »

I've been through more speakers and amps in the last couple of years than I can count. I've come to the conclusion that my 14x18x8' room stinks for a stereo system. Were talking no bass at all. Even stuffed with a ton of bass traps has not changed anything. I have read that the design of the CS2's take the room out of the equation for the most part. How does it do this and does this make it the speaker for me?

AliG · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 May 2008, 12:33 pm »

Perhaps you're sitting at the location where the bass frequency cancel each other out? Did you try walking around the room to see which location has bass and which doesn't?

Stuffing the room with bass traps will NOT increase the bass, it actually does the opposite.

Anyhow, you may want to check your room mode using:
http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 May 2008, 12:38 pm »

Quote from: mca on 20 May 2008, 05:59 am

I've been through more speakers and amps in the last couple of years than I can count. I've come to the conclusion that my 14x18x8' room stinks for a stereo system. Were talking no bass at all. Even stuffed with a ton of bass traps has not changed anything. I have read that the design of the CS2's take the room out of the equation for the most part. How does it do this and does this make it the speaker for me?

Isn't it the DEQX or whatever the processor is that is making it happen with the CS2? Why not try a Tact unit if Barry's suggestion does not work. I know that I followed Bryan's suggestion to be 6" offset from dead center left to right and I am close to his 62% front-wall-to-seating position ratio. There might be some simple things in placement that can do it for you. How about a diagram we can see? I only use PowerPoint for mine and it's quick and easy. Saved as a jpeg it can be uploaded.

zybar · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 May 2008, 01:05 pm »

Quote from: mca on 20 May 2008, 05:59 am

I've been through more speakers and amps in the last couple of years than I can count. I've come to the conclusion that my 14x18x8' room stinks for a stereo system. Were talking no bass at all. Even stuffed with a ton of bass traps has not changed anything. I have read that the design of the CS2's take the room out of the equation for the most part. How does it do this and does this make it the speaker for me?

No speaker totally takes the room out of the equation, but here are a few reasons why the CS2's are a little more room friendly:

1. The waveguide provides directivity control so there is less interaction with the room and more direct radiated sound.

2. The open baffle design radiates different than a traditional box speaker and tends to allow for easier placement and better bass.

3. The use of EQ within the DCX takes into account general room placement (distance to the back wall).

As for some general comments:

1. Definitely don't sit anywhere near the center of the room boundaries (left-right, front-back, top-bottom) - the bass is absolutely the worst at these points.

2. Depending on what bass traps you used, your results will vary. While you can certainly deaden a room with too much acoustical treatments in the mids and highs, I haven't yet experienced where there was too much low level bass trapping. Properly designed and placed bass traps will reduce room nodes and improve the bass response.

3. A TacT unit is a great tool for providing actual room correction. In the case of the CS2's, you could also use it to provide the active crossover that is required. You would need to work with Clayton at Emerald Physics in terms of getting things setup.

Overall, I think the CS2's are outstanding speakers and when properly setup and driven by quality amplification they are a pleasure to listen to. I do believe they could and should work well in your room (based on the limited info you have provided).

George

Ethan Winer · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 May 2008, 03:24 pm »

Quote from: AliG on 20 May 2008, 12:33 pm

Stuffing the room with bass traps will NOT increase the bass, it actually does the opposite.

Just to clarify, adding bass traps makes the bass response flatter. Peaks are reduced and nulls are raised. Whether peaks or nulls are the larger problem depends on the room, the speakers, and listener position. In many smaller rooms nulls are worse, so in that case adding bass traps does indeed increase the bass level, both perceived and measured. In rooms that are close to square, peaks dominate so adding bass traps reduces the boominess and ringing. The only way to know what's going on in any room is to measure at high resolution (ie: not third octaves). I also agree with George that no speaker totally takes the room out of the equation.

--Ethan

mca · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 May 2008, 08:40 pm »

Quote

Perhaps you're sitting at the location where the bass frequency cancel each other out? Did you try walking around the room to see which location has bass and which doesn't?

Over the years, I have tried every conceivable setup and location in this room to no avail.

Quote

Stuffing the room with bass traps will NOT increase the bass, it actually does the opposite.

That's not what the seller of the bass traps told me.

Quote

Why not try a Tact unit if Barry's suggestion does not work

I'm not hardcore enough to start getting into this kind of stuff. If the CS2's don't work in my room, I give up...

zybar · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 May 2008, 08:47 pm »

PM sent.

George

mca · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:02 pm »

Here is a drawing of my room. Speakers are setup on the 16' wall. My listening chair is 12' back leaving about 6' behind my head. I have double stacked traps in all four corners, monsters in the bottom front corners, 244's everywhere else.

I also have three 242's hanging along the front wall and two 242's hanging on each sidewall.

zybar · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:04 pm »

There is no reason why you can't get good bass in a room like that.

George

rockadanny · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:10 pm »

Give up? Egad man! Blasphemy!

AliG · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:18 pm »

I think there's something wrong with the DEQX configuration. There's no reason why you're not getting any bass.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:32 pm »

Quote from: mca on 20 May 2008, 09:02 pm

Regardless of speakers, I would try two different approaches.

Position your listening chair in the center along the back 14' wall, but pull it out a few inches. Spread your speakers wide apart in the middle of the room and tow them in hard so the axis crosses just in front of your face.

The other approach I'd take is basically the same idea with the chair along the west wall near the door. You'll get a wider sound stage but won't have as much room behind the speakers. You should still be able to pull them 5' out which is plenty. Myself I always like to have a minimum of 4' between the speakers and the front wall (more is usually better).

I think the latter of those two options would be your best bet

JoshK · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:41 pm »

A few questions....

Is the unit a Behringer DCX? (not a DEQX, right) What amps are you using and are they level matched to the amps your using for the tweeter (input sensitivity differences accounted for)?

Try a couple of experiments:
Place the speakers with the back of the baffle pointed at the front corners of the rooms and the front are crossing in front of the listening position. Does this help at all, even a little?

It really does sound like something got messed up in the setup and not really room related. However, dipoles cannot pressurize a room with bass the way a monopole speaker can. If you aren't getting the pressure you expect, this can be part of the reason. I defer to SL's website, JohnK's website or other tutorial for the rationale behind that statement.

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 May 2008, 09:52 pm »

mca,
What speakers are you using now? When I read the opening post, it sounded like you were considering the CS2's not that you had them. I think some of the posts have assumed you were having problems with the cs2's...

zybar · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:25 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 20 May 2008, 09:32 pm

Regardless of speakers, I would try two different approaches.

Position your listening chair in the center along the back 14' wall, but pull it out a few inches. Spread your speakers wide apart in the middle of the room and tow them in hard so the axis crosses just in front of your face.

The other approach I'd take is basically the same idea with the chair along the west wall near the door. You'll get a wider sound stage but won't have as much room behind the speakers. You should still be able to pull them 5' out which is plenty. Myself I always like to have a minimum of 4' between the speakers and the front wall (more is usually better).

I think the latter of those two options would be your best bet

Center of the "any" point in the room is not a good place to be.

Moving just a few inches off center in any direction will produce markedly better results.

George

Sonny · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:30 pm »

Quote from: mca on 20 May 2008, 08:40 pm

Quote
Stuffing the room with bass traps will NOT increase the bass, it actually does the opposite.

That's not what the seller of the bass traps told me.

Well, I don't know how the seller can say that...BASS TRAPS reduces the bass frequency (boom) from a certain frequency (depending on the design of the traps). That's why it's called a Bass TRAP!

I think the room is fine, you should be getting plenty of bass, only if the speakers you've used put out that bass.

What Speakers have you used in the room?
Where is the set up in relations to your drawing? where do you sit? Etc???

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:32 pm »

And you don't want to be too close to that back wall either, your going to be getting comb filtering in the upper ranges. Even if the bass is better, it is not the trade I would make. -Well, I guess I should say that if that back wall is treated VERY well, it woudl be ok.

bpape · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:36 pm »

PROPER bass absorbtion can actually result in the perception of more bass and deeper bass. There really isn't any more bass energy in the room as some is being absorbed. What happens is that you're minimizing some of the bass cancelling itself out.

I'll agree that you don't want to be close to a wall nor in the center of any room dimension. Center of any dimension will give you the deepest peaks and nulls for that respective dimension.

Bryan

mca · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:46 pm »

For the record, I do not use a DEQX, Behringer or even own CS2's as of yet. Right now I use a bolder modded SB3, Music Reference RM200 and Dali Helicon 800 speakers. The speakers are pulled out 3' from the back wall and my chair is 1/3 the way back, leaving about 6' behind me. I have tried more speakers than I can count in this room all with little to no bass. Big Ushers, Gallo Ref 3.1, VMPS RM30, Big Piegas, Odyssey Loreleis, RAW HT8, Zu Druids and lots of others I can't remember right now.

Sonny · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 May 2008, 10:51 pm »

Quote from: mca on 20 May 2008, 10:46 pm

For the record, I do not use a DEQX, Behringer or even own CS2's as of yet. Right now I use a bolder modded SB3, Music Reference RM200 and Dali Helicon 800 speakers. The speakers are pulled out 3' from the back wall and my chair is 1/3 the way back, leaving about 6' behind me. I have tried more speakers than I can count in this room all with little to no bass. Big Ushers, Gallo Ref 3.1, VMPS RM30, Big Piegas, Odyssey Loreleis, RAW HT8, Zu Druids and lots of others I can't remember right now.

If you want bass, find a pair of the Meadowlark Herons...
I had a pair and even in my loft of 20x55x14(h), there was plenty oh plenty of bass...