Balanced versa single-ended question, maybe James can chime in?

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Sasha

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If you have balanced gear that supports both balanced and single ended connectivity, and you have it all connected balanced end to end (e.g. player balanced into BP26, BP26 balanced into 7B SST), and for a reason you are forced to go single ended way, what will you lose, if anything?
I was not able to determine this myself as I do not have all the components needed for such assessment, I was wandering if anyone has done comparison?
What would Bryston say about it from an engineering point of view?

James Tanner

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Hi Sasha,

Balancing is a way to reduce 'noise' pick-up in the connecting cables (called common-mode-noise-rejection) between your components.  It does NOT lower the noise floor of the specific component it is connected to.

Like many things in life there is an upside and a down side to a Balanced system. The upside is that the noise floor of your system components will remain intact. The downside is that to balance a system you need a 'sending and receiving' stage.  To complicate things even further is the fact that balanced systems can be done in a number of ways - Transformers, IC Chips and Discrete Operational amplifiers being three ways. Bryston uses Discrete Class A Operational Amplifiers because we feel this is the best way to do it for ultimate performance.

So on the one hand you have interconnect cables acting like 'antenna's' picking up all that electromagnetic interference out there and passing it along to be amplified by you system components or dealing with 2 more GAIN stages in your sending and receiving balanced system.

My own experience has taught me that given the world is full of RF and electromagnetic interference the balanced way is usually the better option assuming the Balanced circuits are state of the art in design.

By the way this electronic and RF interference is not necessarily something that manifests itself in taxi drivers and airplane pilots being audible on your hi-fi system. It can just be a very subtle masking of inner details and low-level information.

Hope this helps.

james

FM Acoustics

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James,

I was looking on the Vovox cables website and for their balanced interconnects they offer them in shielded and unshielded versions. This is what they say about choosing one over the other:

How does one choose between shielded or non-shielded cables?

Many VOVOX® sound conductors are available in a non-shielded 'direct' version and in a shielded 'protect' version. The shielding prevents humming and buzzing sounds, but causes a small loss of sound quality.

There are situations in which it's mandatory to use shielded cables. On the other hand, especially with balanced cables, there are very few cases in which sound disturbances are observed, even without shielding. 'Direct' sound conductors can offer even better results in these cases.

Generally speaking, we suggest using 'protect' sound conductors for applications in which interference would otherwise cause problems (listed below). In all other cases, the non-shielded 'direct' versions should be favored.

    * when interference will necessarily lead to an uncontrollable situation, e.g. for live concerts or live recordings
    * in the case of unbalanced cables longer than 1.5 m (5 ft)
    * for phono record players
    * for amplified music instruments with pick-ups


www.vovox.com

In your experience is it necessary to use shielded balanced cables in a home environment?

James Tanner

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James,

I was looking on the Vovox cables website and for their balanced interconnects they offer them in shielded and unshielded versions. This is what they say about choosing one over the other:

How does one choose between shielded or non-shielded cables?

Many VOVOX® sound conductors are available in a non-shielded 'direct' version and in a shielded 'protect' version. The shielding prevents humming and buzzing sounds, but causes a small loss of sound quality.

There are situations in which it's mandatory to use shielded cables. On the other hand, especially with balanced cables, there are very few cases in which sound disturbances are observed, even without shielding. 'Direct' sound conductors can offer even better results in these cases.

Generally speaking, we suggest using 'protect' sound conductors for applications in which interference would otherwise cause problems (listed below). In all other cases, the non-shielded 'direct' versions should be favored.

    * when interference will necessarily lead to an uncontrollable situation, e.g. for live concerts or live recordings
    * in the case of unbalanced cables longer than 1.5 m (5 ft)
    * for phono record players
    * for amplified music instruments with pick-ups


www.vovox.com

In your experience is it necessary to use shielded balanced cables in a home environment?


Hi FM,

Gee I have never heard of this shielded XLR vs non-shielded XLR Balanced cables before.  I assume what they mean by non-shielded is that you have 3 conductors in the XLR cable but the common mode noise rejection signals are not implemented so it acts electrically like a single ended cable?

The whole point of balanced lines is to have common mode noise rejection so I am at a loss on how to comment on this.

As for home systems needing balanced lines it is generally felt that the longer the cable gets (beyond a meter) the more appropriate it is.  That being said my advice is - if you have a balanced system try it out and see if you hear a difference. Sometimes the noise pickup is insidious and taking it away will provided a clearer more detailed signal. Be careful though because balanced circuits usually have 6dB more GAIN (volume) and the ear will always prefer the louder sound short term.

james

FM Acoustics

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Hi FM,

Gee I have never heard of this shielded XLR vs non-shielded XLR Balanced cables before.  I assume what they mean by non-shielded is that you have 3 conductors in the XLR cable but the common mode noise rejection signals are not implemented so it acts electrically like a single ended cable?

The way I understand it is that both the shielded and unshielded cables have the same conductors but one has the conductors shielded, the other does not.

http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/02_02_04.html
http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/03_02_00.html

I also recall Kimber having unshielded balanced cables...




James Tanner

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Hi FM,

Gee I have never heard of this shielded XLR vs non-shielded XLR Balanced cables before.  I assume what they mean by non-shielded is that you have 3 conductors in the XLR cable but the common mode noise rejection signals are not implemented so it acts electrically like a single ended cable?

The way I understand it is that both the shielded and unshielded cables have the same conductors but one has the conductors shielded, the other does not.

http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/02_02_04.html
http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/03_02_00.html

I also recall Kimber having unshielded balanced cables...





Hi FM,

I guess I am not understanding what they feel the advantage of the unshielded XLR cable is over a standard single ended cable?- except maybe the they like the XLR connector better?

james

NewBuyer

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I have spent far too much time testing out balanced vs. unbalanced interconnects in many systems.  :)

In my case, it has been one of the only cases in audio where results have been consistent and repeatable. In every case, balanced connections have made an audible difference. The degree of audibility will differ with the listener, but it is there.

James mentioned that the balanced rejection of electronic and RF interference can result in an unmasking of subtle inner details and low-level information. This has been my experience each time as well. This includes interconnect lengths of at most 20 feet, and even with lengths as short as only 1 foot.

The noise-cancelling feature of balanced operation is well documented. An equally important benefit of balanced operation in my view, is the avoidance of ground loop issues (that can also mask suble low-level audible information - ground loops don't always cause hum/buzz!). Balanced interconnects include the "ground" line separate from the "pos" and "neg" signal lines, allowing the pos and neg lines to have matching impedance (balanced). Interchassis ground that could otherwise ride with the audio signal on an unbalanced line (resulting in a corresponding voltage drop etc) instead rides the isolated ground line in the interconnect, which is hopefully tied to the chassis of each component in the chain.

With interconnect lengths under 15-20 feet or so: I feel this virtual elimination of ground loops riding the audio signal lines, is as much a reason from superior audio performance from balanced connections, as is the noise-cancellation from the differential operation. Just my own speculation.

James Tanner

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I have spent far too much time testing out balanced vs. unbalanced interconnects in many systems.  :)

In my case, it has been one of the only cases in audio where results have been consistent and repeatable. In every case, balanced connections have made an audible difference. The degree of audibility will differ with the listener, but it is there.

James mentioned that the balanced rejection of electronic and RF interference can result in an unmasking of subtle inner details and low-level information. This has been my experience each time as well. This includes interconnect lengths of at most 20 feet, and even with lengths as short as only 1 foot.

The noise-cancelling feature of balanced operation is well documented. An equally important benefit of balanced operation in my view, is the avoidance of ground loop issues (that can also mask suble low-level audible information - ground loops don't always cause hum/buzz!). Balanced interconnects include the "ground" line separate from the "pos" and "neg" signal lines, allowing the pos and neg lines to have matching impedance (balanced). Interchassis ground that could otherwise ride with the audio signal on an unbalanced line (resulting in a corresponding voltage drop etc) instead rides the isolated ground line in the interconnect, which is hopefully tied to the chassis of each component in the chain.

With interconnect lengths under 15-20 feet or so: I feel this virtual elimination of ground loops riding the audio signal lines, is as much a reason from superior audio performance from balanced connections, as is the noise-cancellation from the differential operation. Just my own speculation.


Hi Newbuyer,

Great point on the ground issue.

james

James Tanner

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Hi All,

Received this - this morning from a member and think it is important to show that it is important to have as much input as possible on these forum topics.

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:13 AM
To: jamestanner@bryston.ca
Subject: (no subject)

Might I remind you that the use of balanced ICs does NOT preclude ground loop issues. To claim this is an OVERSIMPLIFICATION. W/o DBTS ( anathema to the "I know what I hear" disciples), it's doubtful that balanced ICs make any audible difference in typical home systems, w/ the possible exception of differentially balanced units (which Bryston doesn't employ to the best of my knowledge). Unfortunately there's as much misinfo as correct info spread on audiophile forums. It's particularly deplorable when this is disseminated by one who SHOULD know better.

Response from me:

Hi,

Yes we do use fully differential balanced inputs on our gear but I am not an engineer so please feel free to point out any misinformation you see- that’s part of the idea of the forum to educate people -me included.

James


 
                                                                                                                   

Sasha

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Interesting discussion.
All of the above raised another question. I made my own balanced interconnects, now I am wondering if I messed it up?
I used Van Den Hull D102 MKIII cable terminated with Neutrik.
VDH cable construction consists of two conductors and two separate braided shields.
I did the following wiring.
Positive signal: pin 2 to pin 2 using first conductor.
Negative signal: pin 3 to pin 3 using second conductor.
Shield ground: pin 1 to pin 1 using inner braid.
The outer braid was connected to XLR connector body on source end only.
Is this good?

James Tanner

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Hi All,

Received this - this morning from a member and think it is important to show that it is important to have as much input as possible on these forum topics.

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:13 AM
To: jamestanner@bryston.ca
Subject: (no subject)

Might I remind you that the use of balanced ICs does NOT preclude ground loop issues. To claim this is an OVERSIMPLIFICATION. W/o DBTS ( anathema to the "I know what I hear" disciples), it's doubtful that balanced ICs make any audible difference in typical home systems, w/ the possible exception of differentially balanced units (which Bryston doesn't employ to the best of my knowledge). Unfortunately there's as much misinfo as correct info spread on audiophile forums. It's particularly deplorable when this is disseminated by one who SHOULD know better.

Response from me:

Hi,

Yes we do use fully differential balanced inputs on our gear but I am not an engineer so please feel free to point out any misinformation you see- that’s part of the idea of the forum to educate people -me included.

James


 
                                                                                                                   

Hi All,

Here is the input from engineering on this issue:


Hi James;

Bryston uses differential balanced input circuitry on all our balanced products.  This, of course, employs a three-wire signal feed, where ground is not part of the signal path.  It is thus effective at reducing or eliminating ground-loop problems in a system where balanced lines are used.  That is in fact one of the primary reasons to use a balanced feed where possible.

We do not use ICs. Our discrete balanced inputs and outputs have a wider range of operation than ICs.

I hope the above is clear, but please let me know if you have other questions.

Chris Russell
Bryston
« Last Edit: 28 Apr 2008, 03:56 pm by James Tanner »

FM Acoustics

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Hi FM,

I guess I am not understanding what they feel the advantage of the unshielded XLR cable is over a standard single ended cable?- except maybe the they like the XLR connector better?

james


Shielding the cable increases its capacitance. Nordost also has unshielded cables, this is what they say:

Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding increases the capacitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all of the musical information.

James Tanner

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Hi FM,

I guess I am not understanding what they feel the advantage of the unshielded XLR cable is over a standard single ended cable?- except maybe the they like the XLR connector better?

james


Shielding the cable increases its capacitance. Nordost also has unshielded cables, this is what they say:

Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding increases the capacitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all of the musical information.

Hi FM,

Do they say what the capacitance is per foot on their cables?

james


james

FM Acoustics

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Hi FM,

Do they say what the capacitance is per foot on their cables?

james

Yes, check their website. Red Dawn interconnects for example have 8.9pF/ft

www.nordost.com


James Tanner

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Hi FM,

Do they say what the capacitance is per foot on their cables?

james

Yes, check their website. Red Dawn interconnects for example have 8.9pF/ft

www.nordost.com



OK it seems like they feel capacitance is a serious issue with interconnects but the low output impedance of most preamps are not going to have an issue driving a small amount of capacitance in a cable. I guess it comes down to whether you see noise or capacitance as a bigger issue. Something like the Goretz cables have very high capacitance and yet many people seem to like them.

I am going to investigate this further.

James

James Tanner

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Interesting discussion.
All of the above raised another question. I made my own balanced interconnects, now I am wondering if I messed it up?
I used Van Den Hull D102 MKIII cable terminated with Neutrik.
VDH cable construction consists of two conductors and two separate braided shields.
I did the following wiring.
Positive signal: pin 2 to pin 2 using first conductor.
Negative signal: pin 3 to pin 3 using second conductor.
Shield ground: pin 1 to pin 1 using inner braid.
The outer braid was connected to XLR connector body on source end only.
Is this good?


Hi Sasha,

Report from Bryston Engineering:

Hi Sasha;
 
This should work just fine.  Sometimes the XLR connector body is connected to the gound pin, (pin 1), and sometimes it is not.  In your case, it should provide shielding from RF and other contaminants if the case is connected to Pin 1.  If it is not, the connector body is at least connected to the case ground, which would normally terminate at AC ground, and that should provide a degree of RF shielding also.  If it sounds good, it probably is doing what it should.
 
cwr

James Tanner

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Hi FM,

I guess I am not understanding what they feel the advantage of the unshielded XLR cable is over a standard single ended cable?- except maybe the they like the XLR connector better?

james


Shielding the cable increases its capacitance. Nordost also has unshielded cables, this is what they say:

Nordost cables are not shielded because shielding increases the capacitance of the cable by a factor of 55% or more when applied in the conventional manner. If the capacitance of the cable is increased high frequency information is rolled of and you don't hear all of the musical information.

Report from Bryston Engineering:

Shielding the cable provides a great deal of extra RF rejection, though there is lots of precedent for using just a 3-wire unshielded cable even on microphones, and allowing the very high common-mode rejection of the input transformer on the mic to provide an acceptably quiet signal. 

Input differential amplifiers as used in the Bryston balanced circuits, while being generally lower in distortion and wider-bandwidth that transformers, have a limit on the amount of RF noise they can accept and reject.  Thus, Bryston feels that shielded XLR cable will almost always do a better job in a real-world audio system.  Capacitance per se is not a problematic consideration in runs of cable shorter than a kilometer in a Bryston-equipped sound system.
 
cwr

Wizard454

I have a question regarding balanced Vs SE. I have a BP26 (great pre-amp by the way) running S.E. into mono blocks (not Bryston, sorry), the blocks do have balanced connections but are not "true" balanced. The manual states that balanced in is jumped to S.E. RCA with Pin 2 being hot and Pin 1 being ground.
Question is, is it safe to connect standard pre-wired 3 wire XLR cable from the BP26 to the amp XLR inputs wired in this "jumped" manner? If so, do I gain anything by doing so or should I just stay with the single ended RCA's?

Thank you,
Fred

Sasha

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Here is a twist to the question.
Let’s assume interconnects are less than 2m and there are no issues with EMI in the area.
And let’s take two pieces of gear with balanced differential circuitry, BP26 and 7B SST.
Cable manufacturer makes single ended and balanced version of interconnects.
Will balanced interconnect in this case result in better performance, inherent to the design of the gear, everything else being the same, would it for example provide better LF control, imaging, better dynamics, etc., because of the gear design?
We keep talking about real-world audio, but it seems to me it is always in reflection to what you may encounter in a studio where longer interconnects and lots of EMI are facts of life?
What about home use where such issues are not present?

TomW16

Here is a twist to the question.
Let’s assume interconnects are less than 2m and there are no issues with EMI in the area.
And let’s take two pieces of gear with balanced differential circuitry, BP26 and 7B SST.
Cable manufacturer makes single ended and balanced version of interconnects.
Will balanced interconnect in this case result in better performance, inherent to the design of the gear, everything else being the same, would it for example provide better LF control, imaging, better dynamics, etc., because of the gear design?
We keep talking about real-world audio, but it seems to me it is always in reflection to what you may encounter in a studio where longer interconnects and lots of EMI are facts of life?
What about home use where such issues are not present?


I think that is the million dollar question.  If RFI is not present then the balanced circuitry isn't really providing any benefit.  And if simpler is better, then the single ended approach would theoretically provide better results.  Of course, RFI is present to differing degrees in different systems and, therefore, would provide benefits to differing degrees.

Cheers,
Tom