[Brian Cheney]

James Bongiorno and I are currently making plans to do something rarely seen or heard at hifi shows, or anywhere else:  a true live-vs-recorded demonstration featuring James and his combo at one end of a large room, tons of SOTA recording gear, and a pair of the VMPS RMV60 DIGILOG speakers with VLA woofer towers hooked to the latest Ampzillas (new models shown for the first time) at the other.

We will record two albums for CD and vinyl release on a major label (sponsor to be firmed up soon) and play them back for an invited audience seconds later, direct from storage media.  There will be two shows daily, noon and 3 pm.  Press and public will be our instant critics.  All they will have to do is turn around in their seats.  Both ends of the room will be identical, except for the presence of live instruments in one and live reproduction gear in the other.  System will be fully digital up to the amplifiers and include room correction, digital crossovers, and speaker EQ.

This should be quite a test of men and equipment.  Right now I'm soliciting suggestions from AC'ers on how best to conduct these sessions.  We may even ask for volunteers to help out in both planning and execution stages.

Think about it and give us your views.

Should be a ton of fun and a true test of the current state of the art in High End audio.

[soarertoy]

Hi,
I wonder if Doug Sax is free?

Richard

[Housteau]

This is very exciting.  How large of a room will this be and how do you plan to treat the acoustic space?  I ask because you normally prefer more of a live end / dead end listening space.  For this demonstration the sides of the room will switch back and forth, and one source will be actual musicians.  So, how do you plan on treatments to balance the room to accommodate both and then switch?

When the audience rotates their seats around they will be in different positions facing the opposing wall.  That is, if a person was in the front row for the live event, he will now be in the last row for the presentation of the recording of it.  Do you think this will effect their perception of this demonstration and skew the results?

[Brian Cheney]

This is a good point.

I envision three rows of seats, with a maximum of 30 listeners in the center of a a 40' long room,  Perhaps we should have people in the front row swap seats with those in the back row, with those in the center staying where they are.

Other ideas?

I will place the mics myself and position the performers and speaker system.  This will be 2channel, no mixing board, no processing, straight into a digital storage medium.  In other words, pure as we can maintain.

[Rocket]

Hi Brian,

James Bongiorno and I are currently making plans to do something rarely seen or heard at hifi shows, or anywhere else:  a true live-vs-recorded demonstration featuring James and his combo at one end of a large room, tons of SOTA recording gear, and a pair of the VMPS RMV60 DIGILOG speakers with VLA woofer towers hooked to the latest Ampzillas (new models shown for the first time) at the other.

Are you allowed to provide information about the new ampzilla models?

Regards


Rod

[Housteau]

How many musicians will there be and with what instruments?  Placing listeners at the center of a room is normally not something one would do in a home listening environment due to the bass issues.  I am assuming that the speaker EQ that was mentioned will be able to help in this area.  But, what of the live music?  Will not the sound from the combo also be subjected to the same issues, or is that the idea, that both the live and recorded events will be heard in the same identical acoustic space, flaws and all?

[John Casler]

This is very exciting.  How large of a room will this be and how do you plan to treat the acoustic space?  I ask because you normally prefer more of a live end / dead end listening space.  For this demonstration the sides of the room will switch back and forth, and one source will be actual musicians.  So, how do you plan on treatments to balance the room to accommodate both and then switch?

When the audience rotates their seats around they will be in different positions facing the opposing wall.  That is, if a person was in the front row for the live event, he will now be in the last row for the presentation of the recording of it.  Do you think this will effect their perception of this demonstration and skew the results?

Live End Dead End might still be the ticket since you would want the LIVE Musicians in a LIVE end, and to reduce the additional room interaction on playback you might want the speakers in the DEAD END.

Much might depend on miking too.

If the instruments are individually close miked, then you might want to have the whole room LIVE.

Seems to me James plays an Electronic Piano, so the speaker used for that would also be a consideration, unless he went Acoustic.

It will certainly take considerable thought to making it offer comparisons.

[Housteau]

Live End Dead End might still be the ticket since you would want the LIVE Musicians in a LIVE end, and to reduce the additional room interaction on playback you might want the speakers in the DEAD END.

That does make sense.  The live instrument side of the room would also create a lot of diffusion behind the listeners with all the gear set up there.

Will this room be a normal part of the CES hotel room allotments, or will it be off location?  I have never been to the CES, but from what I have read there is very limited time available for setting rooms up and having them ready for the show.  I would think that a project such as this will take a lot of trial and possible error to get things dialed in just right.  Will there be enough time to do this on location, or will a similar sized room be used locally ahead of time for experimentation to get the bugs worked out as much as possible?

[Russtafarian]

This is a very ambitious plan.  Listening to unamplified acoustic music is a qualitatively different experience than listening to speakers reproduce the same music.  Moving from studio to control room during a recording session makes this pretty obvious.  As good as your speakers and your setup might be, your audience might be disappointed in the results if they are expecting the same experience from both the live and reproduced performance. 

I don't say this to criticize the speakers.  I've mixed live sound for over 25 years and one of the main things I appreciate about my RM30s is their ability play back music without the dynamic compression that I hear in most consumer speakers.  The RM60s will probably do really well compared to other high-end speakers in this kind of comparison, but it still may not be enough to convincingly blur the line between unamplifed and reproduced music.

You might consider trying this setup with a live band and the system in similar sized room before you go to Vegas.  This will give you a chance to iron out some of the technical challenges beforehand.  And it will let you assess whether this kind of experiment will give you the results you hope for.


Russ

[Brian Cheney]

Russ, you bring up many excellent points to consider.  I have never done such a live music vs recorded demo and although myself a recording engineering, haven't been in a studio for years.

Your advice and counsel is appreciated.  Think you'll be in Vegas for the Show?  We are looking for volunteers to make setup go smoothly.

BTW there are other challenges than just the setup: transportation, logistics, union contracts, waivers, rehearsals.  James will bring his Yamaha acoustic grand piano which is going to incur drayage and handling both inbound and out.  In other words, a lot of work.

But it should be fun and time will tell how close to the sound of real, live acoustic instruments in the same room  reproduction gear can come.

[Russtafarian]

It would be fun to help with a project like that, provided I could break away from work, family, etc. for a few days.  Haven't been to a CES in about 10 years.

[Brian Cheney]

Think about it and let us know.

I could also use some advice on latest mics and recording/storage media.

[refmedia]

I would look to match the the stereo pattern and the microphones to the best combination of room, performance and playback system set up or loudspeaker placement. This is a nice overview of stereo recording techniques  Several techniques can be utilized and sent to a multitrack recorder or DAW. Then it would be fast and easy to A/B any number of recording techniques or gear on the play back system back to back. My personal favorite is ORTF 

[Russtafarian]

I could also use some advice on latest mics and recording/storage media.

Jim Merod is the guy to talk to.  Among other things, he produces, hosts and records a monthly jazz concert series at Soka University in Aliso Viejo.  At last month's show he was using the Korg DSD recorder and a pair of mics (don't remember what they were) to capture a piano/bass duo. 

I know he'll be at CES.  I can talk to him about what you're planning to do the next time I see him.

Russ

[Brian Cheney]

Sounds good, keep me informed.

We're looking to rent the Apollo Ballroom at the Alexis Park, a very large space (109x62') that is configurable in many ways.  There is also a 1500 sq ft foyer to one side. 

I was thinking of using the foyer for a small system, and have the combo and big system in the adjoining 28'W x 62'L space.  We'll probably bring portable room treatments like Sonex panels and bass traps.

Comments are welcome.

[Brian Cheney]

OK, we're on!

I have reserved the Apollo Ballroom (in the front of the Alexis Park) for our joint VMPS/Ampzilla live-vs-recorded demonstration at THE Show, Jan 8-11.  In addition to James Bongiorno's Trio (bass and drums plus acoustic piano), we plan on inviting guest performers whose identities will be revealed in the next few days.

This should be the audiophile event of the millenium, if not all time (kid you not). 

[Brian Cheney]

We are making considerable progress lining up performers for our live-vs-recorded demo at the Apollo Ballroom.

Here's the lineup so far:

The James Bongiorno Trio
Lesley Olsher, vocalist
Rick Wald, sax
Brian Cheney, tenor with Catherine Venable, piano (thats www.briancheneytenor.com, not yours truly)
John del Carlo, bass baritone (tentative)
Chris Salocks, piano in solo recital and accompanying our singers

My goal is to show the V60's as virtually flawless reproducers of all kinds of music.  We're negotiating for a rock band as well!

[Brax]

This should be the audiophile event of the millenium, if not all time (kid you not). 

You are right about that. If you can pull this off with positive results, you will have set the bar for all other speakers. You'll still get people who will rip on this test, but those will be the people who just realized they spend thousands of dollars on inferior speakers. I wish you the best of luck.

[Brian Cheney]

I don't know if live-vs-recorded has ever been done before at CES or any hifi show, but I can imagine why there's no one anxious to do it (other than yours truly and James Bongiorno.)

First, you need a playback system that is absolutely true to the source and can handle live dynamics and output levels.  The V60/VLA is capable of this, I'm certain.

Second, setup and prep time is short.  We have one day to make everything right, including mic and speaker placement, room treatment, and EQ characteristics.  Some performers will have to meet for the first time at the Show, and rehearsals can't be too extended.  And yet we need a professional presentation or listeners won't want to hear what we're playing.  Thus I have engaged a roster of seasoned professionals.

Third, anyone who has done live recording knows how often noise, distortion, and flubs will ruin your take.  We will have two complete recording setups for adequate backup and flexibility in mic placement.  Still, the demonstration will be fraught with danger.

Fourth, the expense is daunting.  We're dealing with two small manufacturers here, not Sony or JVC.  The ballroom rents for $6,000 and ancillaries will run about another $20k.
If we flop this will be money down the drain, and it will hurt.

On the other hand, if we bring it off and impress both audiophiles and journalists (a demanding bunch), people will talk and write about it for months to come.  "Buzz" alone should be tremendous.

After more than 30 years in audio, James Bongiorno and I want to do something special and spectacular.  I only hope the "spectacular" part will be a ringing success , instead of merely a "good try" or outright failure.

[doug s.]

i think this is a great idea.  but, live vs recorded has been done before.  thomas edison did it as early as 1913, & several more times, up to 1920.  bosendorfer did it in 2005.  dr william hartmann did it in 1999.  g. a. briggs did it in 1954.  the boston audio society did it in 1990.  renaissance studio did it in 1973.  victor campos did it several times.  in the early 1960's & 70's, ar did it over 75 times.  rca did it in 1947. albert von schweikert did it at the 2004 ces.

there's likely more - this is what i found w/a quick google search.

http://www.stereophile.com/images/newsletter/305stph.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE2DC133DF935A25752C1A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/audio.history.timeline.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_Research
http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/samplelc.htm
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/meetings/02-09_meeting.htm
http://www.digitalprosound.com/2004/01_jan/news/vonschweikert_ces.htm
http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/meetings/Past_BAS_meeting_summaries_Moran402.txt

in any ewent, i think the idea is still cool, & i wish you all the best!   

doug s.