[Stu Pitt]

Hi Keith,

Good question - it is only the lower amp versions of the Torus that are direct and the reason Torus decided on this course of action was that they were not getting the support at the local dealer level.

It will certainly be a test case for the discussion we are having.


james

Unfortunately, this is happening with some of your gear too, James.  I live in the Metro NYC area with probably more Bryston dealers than anywhere else, and yet the B60 and 2BLP aren't on a single shop's floor.  I doubt the BP6 is either.  Is it because they view them as a waste of time?  They're about half the price of their respective next step up.  When I was looking to audition a B60 and compare it to a BP6/2BLP, I called about 5 or 6 shops (one was about 75 miles away, and I was willing to go if they had it) and not a single one had ANY of the pieces.  They all had B100s, BP25s, and 22BSSTs though.

Maybe my area is an isolated example, but I doubt it.

[James Tanner]

Hi Keith,

Good question - it is only the lower amp versions of the Torus that are direct and the reason Torus decided on this course of action was that they were not getting the support at the local dealer level.

It will certainly be a test case for the discussion we are having.


james

Unfortunately, this is happening with some of your gear too, James.  I live in the Metro NYC area with probably more Bryston dealers than anywhere else, and yet the B60 and 2BLP aren't on a single shop's floor.  I doubt the BP6 is either.  Is it because they view them as a waste of time?  They're about half the price of their respective next step up.  When I was looking to audition a B60 and compare it to a BP6/2BLP, I called about 5 or 6 shops (one was about 75 miles away, and I was willing to go if they had it) and not a single one had ANY of the pieces.  They all had B100s, BP25s, and 22BSSTs though.

Maybe my area is an isolated example, but I doubt it.

Hi Stu,

Thanks for that input - it certainly reflects what some our customers tell us. It really is a catch 22 as someone else said.  The dealer can not be expected to carry all the different skews that a manufacturer has but at the same time not supporting the manufacturer at some reasonable level does not help either.

I am all ears for input regarding a template to allow all our customers to audition our products.

james

[Phil A]

Hi Stu,

Thanks for that input - it certainly reflects what some our customers tell us. It really is a catch 22 as someone else said.  The dealer can not be expected to carry all the different skews that a manufacturer has but at the same time not supporting the manufacturer at some reasonable level does not help either.

I am all ears for input regarding a template to allow all our customers to audition our products.

james



[/quote]

James - perhaps a tool that would help you as much as customers.  If I go to Bryston's website, I can get a list of dealers.  If you look at Thiel's website, they allow a search by model no. available to audition.  It can be frustrating as someone noted calling a whole bunch of dealers.  I realize it's work to do what Thiel did but it does make it a bit easier.  Another thing - since you're nice enough to listen to our input (OK our crap - was trying to be politically correct ), I'd be perfectly happy to give you a list of what I have in the way of Bryston in case a local customer wanted to hear it in person.  I've invited people over and had them bring their CD players over to listen vs. what I've had in my system over the years so it is not a big deal to me.  I appreciate the way you conduct business and treat your customers.

[KeithA]

I think it may take a novel approach these days...

How about a concept where Bryston can sell direct (mainly into areas where no dealer exists). As well, if someone tries to buy direct in an area where a dealer exists (but a dealer will not stock), the dealer has the option to 'stock' the amp for the potential buyer to audition and purchase. If, however, the dealer chooses not to participate, Bryston is free to sell direct to the buyer with a 30-day money back guarantee (buyer pays shipping both ways).

So, Bryston only sells direct into a market where a dealer exists if the dealer refuses be be part of the potential transaction by not stocking the item for the demo and potential sale.

Are there a lot of holes...yep. But we are just tossing out "What ifs....."

Keith

[smerlas]

I like the direct sale idea, it addresses the issues but does not solve it.  From my experience there seams to be a reoccurring theme.  Some "Dealers" identified on Byston's web site do not necessarily stock any items.  I believe these are older dealers who for whatever reason are not as active as they used to be.

Now for the rhetorical question portion of the thread.  Why are "Dealers" not stocking the product?  What incentives exist from the dealer stand point.  My local dealer stocks other brands they are authorized dealers for, but does not stock Bryston.  They have never said anything against the product, they simply do not have it, and are willing to get it if I want it.  But the other people who come and go while I am at the dealer may have no idea that the product exists and what it is capable of.

In the late 70's and early 80's in order to be a SONY dealer, back in the days of BetaMax, you had to carry a certain dollar value of inventory and sell a certain amount of product. For this commitment you were a dealer.  That ensured that a store could not open up within a certain distance from you and SONY offered special "floor plans" or dealer financing so they could carry stock.  What is my point ........... well do the current Bryston dealers have to meet any requirements?

I agree a dealer can not carry all items in stock, but shouldn't they have to have a B60, a BCD1, Boston's two best sellers?  They should have enough stock for one complete system.  If they are not willing to do this, then they are not a dealer.

How about a "Demo" integrated that is for loan by the dealer.  Special casing, so that the dealer is not always "selling the demo".  This would also eliminate discounting of the unit by selling the "demo".  Unit goes back to Bryston from time to time for adjustments keeping it in prime audio condition.

I thought about keeping the integrated I purchased and letting people in my area arrange demos.  Not excited about having strangers over to listen to my system and hmmmmmmmmm sounds like something you go to a stereo store for.  I decided against it but I bet it would lead to sales.

The "dealer" listing needs to be "updated" if they do not stock and are in essence not selling,  then they should not appear as dealers. 

On-line sales are convenient. But have inherent draw backs as well.  There would be no "dealer" protection if items end up being discounted and shipped into an area where a legitimate dealer is operating.

I think internet sales are inevitable, I personally like the idea of Bryston direct.  That way if a local dealer is present the transaction could be routed thru them.

I firmly believe you need to have you product on the shelves with the other gear.  Those of us who know and love the product do not need to be sold, we will find it.  From a business and marketing standpoint there is huge potentail if people can see, feel and hear the gear.

The web, makes everyones home a potential dealer showroom, let them hear the product and they will buy ( or is that build it and they will come ? )

This concludes my two and a half cents, I will now step down from my soap box.

 

I too am only spitballing here ......... I love the product and am happy to be involved with anything that improves the ability for people to experience this great gear.

Smerlas

[vegasdave]

I just bought my units through authorized dealers in L.A. area (mail order) because I do not have a local dealer here in Las Vegas. Problem solved. Except my 4BSST Pro came slightly damaged. There's a dent on the edge of the front panel and a scratch on the heatsinks. I does work ok, however.

[gjs_cds]

You know--this is a great thread, because it really cuts at the heart of some pretty big changes in (true) hi-fi.  The old paradigm is dying...if it's not already dead.

My own personal experience--for what it's worth--is that I really came of (audiophile) age in the mid 90s.  However, I was working my way through college, graduate school, and later a doctorate program.  I found myself wanting to hang around the hifi salons, primarily to learn and to enjoy their systems.  I was deliberately not getting in their way, interfering with their sales, time or daily business, etc...  The only problem is that the hifi shops in my area (CHLT, NC) were snobby.  They seemed to disdain my presence.  (Even though I was working my way through school as an audio installer and selling mid-fi gear at a shop down the street.  I would even throw clients their way...)

So for me, internet sales was really my only avenue.  The brick and mortar support that I've read so much about had already ceased to be (at least in my area). 

By the time I had the income to actually begin building a legitimate system, I didn't even give the brick and mortar stores a single thought...because I was disillusioned with their golden eared pseudoscience and their overall snobby demeanor.

Personally--I found that the internet / mail-order 30-day take home trial suited me reasonably well.  (Sure it would have been nice to have auditioned them in person, but show room demos aren't reality anyway--so it's not that much of a loss.)  Further--I don't get caught up in comparing/auditioning between brands and models, because that's really not an option via mail order.  But I've come to realize that this is likely a benefit, as it allows me to focus on expanding my music collection and actually enjoying the music (rather than tweaking and twiddling w/ the system).

An interesting thing is that I've come full circle.  Now, I actually prefer to pay a premium for quality service and attention.  However--not in the area of audio.  My initial experience was so bad that it's likely soured me forever.  I'm wondering (out loud) if other 30-somethings have had similar experiences...

I think a HiFi company would be wise to fully embrace the internet take-home-trial model... Follow the Bose (wince!) model, even.  Free take home trial; you pay return shipping (if needed); have the option to pay 100% upright, or spread it out over a limited amount of time.  (Say what you want about their crappy products, but they've got the marketing down...)

Just my two cents...

[vegasdave]

You know--this is a great thread, because it really cuts at the heart of some pretty big changes in (true) hi-fi.  The old paradigm is dying...if it's not already dead.

My own personal experience--for what it's worth--is that I really came of (audiophile) age in the mid 90s.  However, I was working my way through college, graduate school, and later a doctorate program.  I found myself wanting to hang around the hifi salons, primarily to learn and to enjoy their systems.  I was deliberately not geting in their way, interfering with their sales, time or daily business, etc...  The only problem is that the hifi shops in my area (CHLT, NC) were snobby.  They seemed to disdain my presence.  (Even though I was working my way through school as an audio installer and selling mid-fi gear at a shop down the street.  I would even though clients their way...)

So for me, internet sales was really my only avenue.  The brick and mortar support that I've read so much about had already ceased to be (at least in my area). 

By the time I had the income to actually begin building a legitimate system, I didn't even give the brick and mortar stores a single thought...because I was disillusioned with their golden eared pseudoscience and their overall snobby demeanor.

Personally--I found that the internet / mail-order 30-day take home trial suited me reasonably well.  (Sure it would have been nice to have auditioned them in person, but show room demos aren't reality anyway--so it's not that much of a loss.)  Further--I don't get caught up in comparing/auditioning between brands and models, because that's really not an option via mail order.  But I've come to realize that this is likely a benefit, as it allows me to focus on expanding my music collection and actually enjoying the music (rather than tweaking and twiddling w/ the system).

An interesting thing is that I've come full circle and (now) actually pay for for service and attention.  However--not in the area of audio.  My initial experience was so bad that it's likely soured me forever.  I'm wondering (out loud) if other 30-somethings have had similar experiences...

I think a HiFi company would be wise to fully embrace the internet take-home-trial model... Follow the Bose (wince!) model, even.  Free take home trial; you pay return shipping (if needed); have the option to pay 100% upright, or spread it out over a limited amount of time.  (Say what you want about their crappy products, but they've got the marketing down...)

Just my two cents...

In my experience (I'm 36,) it varies. Some dealers can be snobs...but, I would say the majority aren't.

I agree with the marketing idea. I'd say it would help sales, but might be too much of a hassle for the company.

[smerlas]

The true irony is that in a day in age of the bottom line and the customer is no longer right, the owner does not care if you complain, etc. ...... there seams to be a resurgence for (dare I say demand ) for service.  Some of us are willing to pay more for ........... gulp ....... quality and service.

Oh my god ............ is that the typical Bryston customer!?  Is this why they build a product with a 20 year warranty .....

I think / hope we will see dealers who service survive and thrive, there will just be fewer of them.  I can say of my age group ( mid 40's ) we remember small stores where the sales person knew more about the product than the customer and desire service.  I for one welcome the resurgence of the neighborhood service industry.  I believe that the internet would allow the dealer network to service larger areas, filling the gaps in the current dealer network.  Might be worth looking at "territories" for dealers.

Often times the retail experience feels like standing there with money in hand saying, please sell me something, and no one wants to take your money.

This is why we go outside of our regional market and track down dealers who will get us the equipment we want.  I dare to say if we could get it locally we would not end up "shopping" dealers for price in other regions.

[KeithA]

I think one thing we can't overlook, though, is that Bryston has grown up. When i bought my first system after graduating from university the 4B on the shelves was a $2,000 piece of gear. Now we can get our favourite Bryston in a $16,000 package of 28Bs. I'm sure they are worth every penney....but many of the traditional small retailers aren't going to touch stocking these items today...or even a $7,400 14B or an $8,000 pair of 7Bs.....

Keith

[reflex]

As a dealer, primarily now doing the "Custom Home Theater" thing, we find it difficult to stock alot of the higher end gear when the bulk of our customers want flat panel tv's (very little profit), front projector-based theaters (sometimes even LESS profit) and distributed music.  Add to that lighting control and full system automation and you end up being well beyond what even the more affluent buyer wants to spend sometimes.  There's still some 2-channel listeners out there, but mp3's and specifically the iPod have ruined the desire for quality sound for the average customer.  That low-rez stuff seems to be good enough for most.  This forum may revolve around it.  The principals at our shop may be addicted to it (all of us have 2-channel only systems), but the bread and butter in our market (650k ppl in the metro area and probably 1.5mil within a 50 mi radius) are all about surround sound and home theater at this point in time.  They'll spend some money on the tv but scrimp something awful on the audio part of the system.

We carry a number of what we feel are quality lines...Anthem, Ayre, Parasound, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, B & W, Paradigm, JL Audio, Vandersteen, Revel...and yes, Bryston.  We also have all the stuff we need to do the custom systems that 95% of the people out there seem to want.  The installers and the trucks and the tools and the insurances and the certifications, etc.  All that costs money.  But we have to do it to stay in business.  2-channel alone would put us under real fast.  And when you put yourself in that business you also begin competing with the electricians who will put speakers all over a house and the alarm companies who are moving into theaters and distributed music and the "trunk slammers" who have no overhead and order all their stuff from distributors, with no direct lines at all.  Add to that the Best Buys and Circuit City's and the competition for the customer's dollar can be mighty tuff.  Especially when the average customer adds up prices they find on the web and can't always understand why you're charging so much more for what to them is pretty much the same thing.  But we have to compete and we do...and have been very successful at it.  But it takes experience (the owner and myself with over 30 years each of continuous a/v sales) and some unique solutions to sway the average joe away from the lowest price-only consideration.

For us to stock even half of what the lines I mentioned above have in their product mix would be bordering on suicidal, if we actually want to stay in business.  There just aren't enough customers out there to support it all.  I remember in the early days of audio when all you sold was 2-channel, the dealers I've worked for almost always had full product lines in stock.  The customer base was there.  There were no $5000 tv's taking the entertainment dollar.  No iPods watering down the quality of music and making it available anywhere you might happen to be.  Going home and "listening" to music was something alot of people did and enjoyed.  Now, most people just "hear" music...rarely actually "listening".

This might not apply to most or all of the members of this forum, but it certainly does to the masses out there.  And back in the early days of hi-fi it was the masses that made the industry successful.  Pretty much everyone wanted a good stereo system.  Now that money is spread thin over a number of varied entertainment products.

Then we have the problem of the internet.  Tons of stuff sold direct by a number of manufacturers...and easy to find.  Getting something shipped in from a distance is an easy and typically safe thing to do now.  I just got a power cord from Lithuania today.  20 years ago that would have been a rather weird thing to do.  But in this day and time it's no big deal.  And since the internet has made this planet we live on such a small place in the last few years, it's opened up the market for many more players.  Stuff from China...Lithuania...and beyond.  You have Audiogon and eBay and many others, which now are our competitors as a dealer.  Used has become a viable option...and not just from your buddy or the shop down the street.  And add to that...and I don't want to pick on Bryston here...but you have dealers out there who will sell most anything for whatever they can get over cost.  We get calls all the time looking for pricing on Bryston and when we ask where the customer is calling from and find there is a local dealer, and refuse to make the sale, we will get criticized for not wanting their money.  Or we'll be quoted a price from Minnesota or New York, etc that is $200 over cost.  Would you want to stock $10k-$20K worth of stuff you know other dealers are whoring out?  I think not.  It's fun to do great demos with great gear, and as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread...loan stuff out for eval.  But not so some guy across the country can put a label on a box and make a few $100 for doing so.

I'd say I'm gonna get off my "soapbox" now...but I'm not actually on one...this is just reality.

[Stu Pitt]

A lot of good points have been made here.  I should state that for the record that the Bryston dealers I contacted were very nice.  Their was no snobbery at all.  I've visited 3 of them in the mean time, and all were exceptional.  I was looking into speakers (still am actually), and they all demoed the gear very well, and were enthusiastic about it.  All offered to let me bring in my B60 (without me having to ask) for a second demo.

One of the salesmen personally owned a B60.   He powered a pair of speakers with a B100, and went into very good detail what the sonic differences were between the B60 and B100, so I'd have a better idea what to expect.

I actually like the idea of Audio Advisor carrying Bryston gear.  I haven't dealt with them before, so I can't say if they're good or not, but I'm sure Bryston has done their homework.  It gets Bryston into more people's homes that didn't have the opportunity to before.  So long as they're doing things the way Bryston wants them too/the way Bryston would, I think its probably the way to go.

My only concern is if they're allowed to sell to people who have a local dealer available.  Rega recently allowed Music Direct to sell their gear so long as there isn't a local dealer available.  If the customer has a dealer within, say, 50 miles, they can't sell any Rega gear to that person.

In regards to the Bryston dealers not carrying certain items - maybe they should order it for the customer - after the customer has heard some Bryston gear - and offer a 30 day 100% money back guarantee.  One dealer told me he'd order a B60 for me, but if I didn't like it, he'd charge me something like a 10% or 15% re-stocking fee.  Needless to say, I didn't visit that dealer.

[Stu Pitt]

Keith A brought up a good point while I was typing (I hope this was one of your points) -

Not every dealer can afford to carry the entire line of gear for auditioning purposes.  I don't think too many people would complain if a dealer told them they didn't have a 28BSST on the floor because they couldn't afford them.

But that excuse doesn't work when their floor is filled with top of the line Bryston gear, in addition to BAT, Classe, and Levinson.  How come a certain dealer carries the entire lines from all of those, yet doesn't carry Bryston's entry level stuff?  Again, is it not worth their time?  The B60, BP6, and 2BLP are pretty small, they wouldn't take up much floor space, nor really under cut the more expensive stuff.  Especially in Greenwich, CT.  Actually, I'd be willing to bet a lot of the shoppers there would buy a B60 for a bedroom, office, etc. system, and a bigger system as a main system.

[Stu Pitt]

Excellent post Reflex.

[smerlas]

I personally understand the dealer perspective.  When I purchased my B&W 804's I had to wait for them.  I took three days and I had them.  The local dealer sounds similar to "Reflex".  They primarily do Home theatre installs.  Owner and staff are diehard two channel stereo guys.  The only "product" in stock is interconnects, programmable remotes other small stuff.

They have several rooms with a couple of configured systems in each and different speakers.  No Bryston system even thought they are a "dealer".  Until I had spent thousands on speakers they were not sending me home with amps and such to try.  After purchasing the speakers they offered to let me take home a couple of different integrated amps to try. 

I love the integrated approach.  It let me get a feel sonically for the amp and pre in one package.  Then you work with the dealer on which amp or preamp or processor you want to employ in your system.  I don't expect in this day and age for the dealer to play bank and warehouse for the manufacturer.

Online dealers like Audio Adviser could help as long as they do not end up discounting and are not sending product into areas where dealers like "Reflex" are trying to make a living.  The system of checks and balances needed to regulate that from Bryston's standpoint might not be practical.

As long as James and the rest of the folks at Bryston get this type of feedback from the dealers and customers Bryston will be able to adapt their marketing and distribution systems to the benefit of all involved.

[NewBuyer]

Hi James,

Personally I very much wish that Bryston would offer factory-direct purchasing. This would be an outstanding development in my opinion.

Best Regards!

[jcpix]

Another vote for factory-direct.     

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hey Reflex - I'm a huge fan of dealer networks and won't buy any of my high performance components online. Synergy is so important in a system and only a dealer can offer opinions on it and let you take a couple things home for the weekend to try in your system.

One thing I disagree with you partially on is used equipment. I am a huge fan of the used outlets like eBay and Audiogon. Both have allowed me to sell older components and upgrade my systems considerably. If people can't sell their B&W 802Ds they are less likely to upgrade to the 800Ds. I think used outlets help high performance dealers more than the mid to low fi dealers.

[reflex]

Hey Reflex - I'm a huge fan of dealer networks and won't buy any of my high performance components online. Synergy is so important in a system and only a dealer can offer opinions on it and let you take a couple things home for the weekend to try in your system.

One thing I disagree with you partially on is used equipment. I am a huge fan of the used outlets like eBay and Audiogon. Both have allowed me to sell older components and upgrade my systems considerably. If people can't sell their B&W 802Ds they are less likely to upgrade to the 800Ds. I think used outlets help high performance dealers more than the mid to low fi dealers.

I'm not against used outlets at all.  I just mentioned them because they add to the mix of possible sources for equipment.  I buy and sell on Audiogon and eBay all the time.  Both are a great sources for gear that has been lovingly cared for and lots of money can be saved.  The Lessloss PC I got today came via Audiogon.  I'm not one to only use equipment I sell either. 

[gjs_cds]

Reflex--I appreciate your post and perspective.  Your account of reality seems to be pretty spot on, and HiFi manufacturers would be wise to listen to your account.  Particularly the one you describe here...

And add to that...and I don't want to pick on Bryston here...but you have dealers out there who will sell most anything for whatever they can get over cost.  We get calls all the time looking for pricing on Bryston and when we ask where the customer is calling from and find there is a local dealer, and refuse to make the sale, we will get criticized for not wanting their money.  Or we'll be quoted a price from Minnesota or New York, etc that is $200 over cost.  Would you want to stock $10k-$20K worth of stuff you know other dealers are whoring out?  I think not.

It seems like a no-win situation for you guys.  Break the rules for a pittance of a profit, or keep the rules and lose a sale.  Clearly, the system is breaking (if not broken)...and it would seem ripe for a systemic overhaul.