[Ichinichi]

So I was procrastinating () by evaluating my meager setup (a righteous task irrespective of time or other pressures!) and realized that theres a question my engineering brain has not and cannot resolve. Intuitively, the answer to this question should be grounded in sound physics (, sorry ).

How far apart should speakers generally be at a listening distance of about six or seven feet on the perpendicular?

The reason I ask is that right now, when I listen, I've noticed that if the speakers are 8 to 9 ft, they disappear, any closer together and my ears can place where they are. Am I sitting too close? Intuition would have it that the further apart the speakers are, the wider the resulting soundstage, is this true? I mean, as w tends to zero, the sound becomes a single point source, and as w tends to infinity their sound approaches two point sources, but in a real-world, residential scale, for a given set of speakers is there a range at which one often realizes the greatest soundstage width? Again, intuitively, this depends on the room size, but assume a regular room, 15' x 17' say of which only a 10' x 10' footprint is available. What kind of spacing should I be considering?

Thanks much!!!

[loki1957]

Try the rule of thirds. Speakers one third of the way into the room from the front wall and the listening position one third of the way off the back wall. Works well for me. I also use a lot of toe in.

[JLM]

There are many different theories.  Beyond that speakers of different types (dipolar, bipolar, line array, omni-polar) also dictate ideal placement.  Most just experiment and do what they like. 

Here's link for near field listening that I follow:  http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

[sbrtoy]

Speakers all have different dispersion and rooms have different reflections, thus any setup formula is really just a guide to get you in the ballpark.  I have always had to experiment with positioning and judge by ear.  Some speakers are much more fussy than others and even adding an extra 1/8" of toe-in can really dial them in. 

Would be nice if there was an easier more time effective way, but really there isn't.

[John Casler]

So I was procrastinating () by evaluating my meager setup (a righteous task irrespective of time or other pressures!) and realized that theres a question my engineering brain has not and cannot resolve. Intuitively, the answer to this question should be grounded in sound physics (, sorry ).

How far apart should speakers generally be at a listening distance of about six or seven feet on the perpendicular?

The reason I ask is that right now, when I listen, I've noticed that if the speakers are 8 to 9 ft, they disappear, any closer together and my ears can place where they are. Am I sitting too close? Intuition would have it that the further apart the speakers are, the wider the resulting soundstage, is this true? I mean, as w tends to zero, the sound becomes a single point source, and as w tends to infinity their sound approaches two point sources, but in a real-world, residential scale, for a given set of speakers is there a range at which one often realizes the greatest soundstage width? Again, intuitively, this depends on the room size, but assume a regular room, 15' x 17' say of which only a 10' x 10' footprint is available. What kind of spacing should I be considering?

Thanks much!!!

It is not "how far apart they are", but the "angle" that would determine (to a degree) the width of the soundstage.

It is difficult to NOT occasionally hear the exact location of a speaker if the recording has direct in phase information coming from that speaker only.

You might try setting them up in "mono" and concern yourself with the CENTER image only (since there should be no locating them individually)

Many suggest the 90 degree, or "equilateral triangle" positioning to start, but I have found that I like a wider angle. (if you are able to converge your speakers as in "toe in")

[Ichinichi]

Thanks so much for the helpful replies!

What is toe-in in reference to? And when Mr. Caster says "wider" angle, this angle is with respect to what exactly? Each other? The vertical (facing the audience)? The horizontal (facing each other)?

I'm gonna go read some of the links. But a ballpark is exactly what I'm after; I just don't want to spend a day or a weekend tweaking placement only to find out 6 months later that I'd settled on some local maximum and that 2 ft over would have been optimal.

[sbrtoy]

Toe-in is an old automotive reference applied to speaker setup which refers to angling the speakers towards your center listening position.  Toeing them in (towards you) typically results in vocals coming from at or in front of the speaker plane, and adds more density to your center image. Toeing out typically results in vocals behind the plane of the speaker and a more diffuse center image.  Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot where you will get both excellent center image and good image depth and width.  My personal preference is for a bit more "forward" sound than some so I like a fair bit of toe-in, as always it is personal preference. Move each speaker very slowly as small increments make big differences.  I have a small laser level I picked up at Lowe's which helps me get them to intersect at the correct spot, it is a nice tool to have on hand for this.

One guide that is definitely important is to try to make your setup symmetrical as most rooms are rectangular and this will provide uniform reflections (which can be treated) and ambiance.  Placing speakers non-symetrically can make one sound louder, move the center image to one side, or create lumps and bumps at different frequencies.

Hope this helps!

[SET Man]

Hey!

   Also, don't forget to play around a bit with your seating location too.

   With my set up I like to sit farther away and closer to the rear wall (the wall behind the listener)

   Strangely, I had one or two guys over and they prefer to sit closer to the speaker than my usually spot

   As for finding spot for your speaker. Well, there is no one perfect way. So, you just have to do some "ballroom dancing" with your speaker. Mark each spot with blue painter tape so it would be easy to move them back and forth.

  A good start would be with he Cardas calculation and than move them back and forward, farther apart or closer together and etc. Until you find one that you feel have the best the balance.

  Good luck.

Take care,
Buddy

[jimdgoulding]

This is excellent information you have been given.  That 10X10' footprint . . is that at lease out 3' from your side walls and 5' from your fore and aft walls?  If not, you may have a smaller footprint than you think or a greater need for wall treatment.  The size of your speakers and the distance between drivers can matter, also.  If your speakers are pretty compact in size with closely grouped drivers, try sitting at the apex of a 7' or 8' equidistant triangle with your speakers at the other points of the triangle towed directly at your listening position.  Start tight.  In my case, this allows for my speakers to be 7' apart and 3' from the side walls and 5' out from the wall behind them with my chair 4' out from the wall behind it.  These measurements are from the center front of my cabinets to the walls but only to the front of my chair, rather than the back.  So, my triangle is elongated by approximatly 1' to my head.  This and toeing the speakers out to where I can comfortably see the inside wall of my cabinets is giving me the best results on recording after recording.  My stage is expansive with ample depth of field.  It wouldn't be as expansive if I were sitting 2 or 3 more feet away.  Imagery is very stable and specific.  If you can get that far away from your walls with your speakers and listening chair position, I believe you will find this position very satisfactory based on a comment in your opening.  Floor space permitting (and respect for your walls), you could spread out further but I recommend using this formula in any case.  It's given me the best results in my experience in this and other rooms with speakers having front firing speakers.  If your drivers are not configuered closely, as in the case of some three or four way front firing speakers, you will want to allow enough distance for your different drivers to coalesce at your position.  Just listen for the truest shape (always) if you have a few recordings that you trust.  If I had a larger room and larger speakers, I would try expanding the dimensions of my triangle somewhat just to see if there is a benefit but I would stick to this formula.  Lastly, mark your measurements as recommended and use a tape measure for EXACT measurements.  I had misjudged the depth of the my baseboards.  Trying to make it easy on myself, I subtracted the depth of the baseboards and divided by two so I could measure from just one wall to find the midway point for my chair.  The difference from where I had incorrectly put my seat couldn't be seen with the eye, but after I corrected it, it could be heard alright.

[Russell Dawkins]

I would say the Cardas set up is a good general start, but it is worth knowing that recordings are mixed and mastered with the speakers and listener in an equilateral triangle, i.e. 60 degree angle between speakers from listeners perspective, or each speaker 30º off the center line. I generally start with the speakers toed in so the axes cross in front of the main listener's position - this allows for some width across which some reasonable degree of stereo can be heard, in other words as you move left or right of center, the image doesn't suddenly collapse to the nearest speaker.

By far the quickest way to accomplish the best imaging situation in a given room is to check the placement of speakers with a true mono signal. If you don't have a mono selector on your system, then with most amplifiers you can parallel the speakers on one channel, or if you have any doubts about your amps ability to handle low impedances without self destructing you could wire the speakers in series, again on one channel.

Ideally then you would use pink noise (like FM inter-station hiss) but you could use anything, and you do whatever is necessary to get the narrowest sounding image in the center. This is called a phantom image and it is possible with a very well set up system to get an image that sounds like it is coming through a narrow slit vertically down the center.

I have heard this, but not often - more often it is just generally centered.

The deal with the pink noise is that with this you can also zero in on problem frequencies in that what will be heard may be a tight vertical grouping, but with horizontal smearing at certain frequencies where the acoustics come into play or where the speakers themselves are not well matched. If this is the case, you will hear the same frequencies exaggerated if the speakers are placed almost face to face with one in reverse polarity and a mono signal is played through them.

Anyway, the mono trick saves a lot of time in set up - anything else and you are wasting time second guessing what the recording is intended to sound like, and so on. If your interest is in hearing what the mixing and mastering engineers wanted you to hear, start with 60º included angle and do the mono thing.

As a second basic guide, ideally the zone around the speakers should be as close to bi-laterally symmetrical as is feasible, i.e., the acoustic to the left of the left speaker should mirror the acoustic to the right of the right speaker. Any variations on this ideal will skew the image left or right at certain frequencies, impairing imaging. Sometimes the diagonal arrangement works best, where the center axis points into a corner.

[Daygloworange]

I would say the Cardas set up is a good general start, but it is worth knowing that recordings are mixed and mastered with the speakers and listener in an equilateral triangle,

I agree with others here. My studio monitors are always setup this way, and to a slightly lesser degree, so are my 2 channel speakers.

The main reasons are to minimize (speaker off axis) room reflections, and minimize channel crosstalk ( left speaker firing into right ear and vice versa), which blur imaging and soundstage.

This is the way most music is (theoretically) mixed, and will give you the best stereo image of recordings.

Cheers

[2bigears]

   this is a real sweet topic as i have never heard a stage.my room is 15 wide by 17 long.i have the speakers 3 feet from back wall and 24" from side walls....am i way off ????  :scratch   free beer for a big help !!!!   

[jimdgoulding]

Ichy-  Made some changes to my reply above.  It should be more useful to you now.   2big-  You're jivin, right?  Cause you could make good use of the info above if you're not.   Ichy-  You haven't said what kind of speakers you are setting up?   2big-  Get to work, bro.

[2bigears]

   no jivin' here,just a jive turkey ?? if i place the speakers 5 or six feet from the front wall the law of the 1/3's go out the window,right ???? where do you start with placement in a 17' long room,?? from what you said start 5 or 6 feet out on back wall and go 3' out from the sides???? sound close for a start ??  thks 

[jimdgoulding]

Yes.  Do it.  Both at the same distance, of course.  It would be beneficial to know how far apart this would put your speakers.  This will help tell you at what distance you can begin to put your chair.  Speaking of speakers, what are yours?  What else is in the front end of your room and at it's sides?

[2bigears]

   never ever been off the back wall more than 3 feet.if i bring them out 1/3 or say 7 feet and 3 feet off side walls ????thats only 7 feet between,,,,this would be new for sure.can you say close field listening.but i may get my stage finally.i have a set of SP Tech Revs....the room is a rectangle and dedicated 2 channel room. does this sound right ??

[jimdgoulding]

You want to differ the distances between boundaries.  Pull em out 5', 7' apart, 3' from your side walls.  Put your listening Chair at 7' to start.  Hopefully the distance behind you won't be the same as the distance from the front wall to the speakers.  Something other than 5'.  Maybe you can move your chair back a little further.  Experiment with this and toe in.  Make sure your measurements are exact.  Things not mentioned amongst the replies on this topic are furnishings in the room.  If you can clear the wall behind your speakers and the walls to the sides you will be aiding and abetting more of a virtual stage.  A discreet rack is ok.  A big screen is not.  Sorry.

Pardon.  Later, I reread your last sentence and see where you stated that this is a dedicated room.  Oh good!

[Ichinichi]

Hi everyone! Thanks for the great posts!

Jim and others, my room is far from a perfectly closed rectangle. I live in a compact apartment and the 10 x 10 is actually the only subarea I can use for my system in of my living/dining room, which measures 17 wide by 15 deep. So to the left are two windows and the the right, there's actually 6 or so feet to the wall and a walkway in between. Does this change anything?

Cheers!

[jimdgoulding]

Nich-  Well, it might be helpful if you could draw and post a layout with dimensions to include placement of furnishings that would need to be accommodated for.  If not, I understand.  I couldn't myself (ain't that smart).  Otherwise, try the 7' triangle for starters and play around with that.  What brand/model of speakers are you using?

[Ichinichi]

actually...

the living/dining is measured from grey wall to kitchen tile. the two black rectangles are immovable shelves and the black square on the lower right is the footprint of my computer space (where i work). the wall that faces the kitchen is the wall that will be behind my speakers (they'll face the kitchen) the the chair will be somewhere in the middle of the space.