[Ichinichi]

Hi all  ,

Well, thanks to Scott F. and his LPs, I can't get the sound of vinyl out of my head. So, to be as vague as possible , here I am, looking to get started in vinyl but don't know where or how to even start looking! What are some good manufacturers? Is vintage gear better? any and all help appreciated!!! 

[Bob in St. Louis]

I'm in the same boat as you, and from the sounds of it we are both at the same place in our vinyl voyage: Square #1.
If I may take the liberty, I'd like to add to your question;

- Where are good places online to buy albums? (flea markets/garage sales are a given)
- Recommendations for a good (cheap) stylus gauge?

Take my answers with a grain of salt but from what I understand about vinyl is you're better off financially getting a quality used unit and "modernizing" it. Or at least giving it a tune-up. The new one's that are good quality might be out of your price range.
What is your price range?

A couple good names I see pop up often are Rek-O-Kut [sp?], Garrard/Gerrard [sp? again].
But again, I haven't held a piece of vinyl in my hand since the mid 1980's so what do I know. 
I'm just a vinyl virgin like yourself. 

Bob

[BobM]

A couple of things to think about.

- is this just a test or are you serious?
If it's a test, then pick up an inexpensive TT on e-bay and give it a shot. Oh, and a phono stage if you don't already have one. There are many cheap options open to you.

- If you're serious you need to specify a budget. Then you'll get hundreds of recommendations fro members, which leads to more questions ...

- do you want a suspended or mass loaded non-suspended TT?
- do you want to start relatively inexpensively then improve things as the budget expands over time? this will narrow down your list of choices considerably.
- do you have a phono stage that can handle low output moving coil cartridges? whoich leads to many, many different choices and recommendations there.

As for records, it depends where you are located, but there are usually thrift shops and record stores most everywhere (within reason). then there's always on-line sources like e-bay and GEMM.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Scott F.]

Hi Alan and Bob,

I guess the first thing we need to approach is your budget. Here's what I'd set aside for your first vinyl rig.

Turntable - $250-$350, used from eBay or Agon (or here on occasion)
Cartridge - $150, new
Phono stage - $200 used

On the table, there are a number of nice sounding older tables available but you will have to be dedicated to snap up a decent one. When I was recently searching for my third table, I checked eBay's new listings once a day at a minimum. It might take a week or two to get one to pop up that is in good condition and has the Buy Me Now option. These tables can vary from Ariston's, to NAD's, to AR's (belt drives) to Micro Seiki's (direct drives) and others.

In searching for a good used table there are a few narrowing parameters I'd put on your search. First, look for a wood/MDF plinth. Some of the plastic tables can sound OK but (in very general terms) they tend to be (and look) cheap. I'll get blasted for that statement from the huge Technics fan boy club around here but thats my opinion FWIW.

Second, make sure it has a heavy platter. Acrylic is preferable, metal is fine too. Metal tends to ring but I can show you how to tweak it so it minimizes it.

Third, belt or direct drive. Honestly on a starter deck, it isn't going to make much difference. Both will sound just fine. Belts ca be had for $20 from Rome at LPGear. Some will argue about speed stability of a belt drive, ignore it. Every table you've heard over here has been a belt drive. So that shoots that theory in the foot. That said, I've had several direct drive and they do a fine job too. I've got nothing against them at all, I just don't thing they are the do-all, end-all, last word in turntable design that others seem to.

Fourth, pay very close attention to the arm design. VTA adjustment isn't a must but it sure is nice. That will keep us from having to shim the arm up to where it need to be. Next, make absolutely sure the arm isn't integrated into the plinth. That is a tell-tale sign of a cheap table. In your search, you will find arms that look as if they have a plastic block on the back that acts as a counterweight. Avoid those. Same goes with linear tracking arms in your price range....very bad news. If you run arcross an arm with a detachable headshell, that is just fine. This gives you options down the road to quickly change out headshells & carts for those you want to play with during a listening session. Next is 'S' type or straight arms. In your price range, either will do you just fine so don't be picky.

Fifth, as you pick your table, be very very concerned with shipping and the shipper. I've bought a number of nice tables and had them completely destroyed in shipment. When you make your final purchase online, offer to pay a little extra for the shipper to pack per your very specific instructions (that I'll provide for you at a later date).

Sixth, solid or suspended deck. At your price range either will do (and sound) just fine. You might get lucky and find a decent suspended deck. If you don't, we/you can put a Sandblaster on your project list. It's a fun, easy and super cheap build. I'd suggest it regardless which table you choose. See the TNT-Audio site for details.

Carts. There are a number of nice carts that you can get on the cheap. The AT every one talks about seems to be a nice cart for the money. Others that get nice talk are some of the Denon's and Shures. I'm leaving out several but the other guys will chime in on that one, I'm sure.

Phonostage - In this price range, if it were my money, I would hold out until you can pick up a used Graham Slee, Graham Amp 2. You might even get lucky and find a Graham Amp 2se in the $250 range. You won't find a better sounding stage for the money. Again, others will offer up different stages but I would hold out for the GA2.

Finally, don't rush your purchase. Take your time. Savor the hunt. Rather than grabbing the first decent table that comes along, wait for that monster 14 point buck to walk into your sights, then reap your harvest. It will come along.

Over the next few days I'll start watching eBay and Agon and feed you a few decent tables to consider and better advice yet, the ones to avoid. From that, it should give you a feel on what to watch out for.

[mark@marktwain]

Congratulations on your new adventure fellas. Scott's place can really get the vinyl juices flowing huh?

I would also like to mention that you can get a vinyl rig that sounds really good for very little dollars too. My current wax spinner consists of an AR-XA that Scott and I dug up in a shed in Frankfort MO. $25.00, a Sure m97xe cartridge $65.00 and a Hagerman Bugle $60.00 (kit) for a grand total of $150.00 and it sounds pretty darn good.

I have all the goodies to build my diy table which will be belt drive and consist of a clearaudio champion III 3" acrylic platter and inverted bearing, maxon dc motor and the Mark Kelly DC motor controller. The motor, controller and pulleys were purchased from group buys on diyaudio. The platter and bearing are new Clearaudio upgrade parts I picked up on the bay. I just need to build a plinth for it and if Sturg will ever sell me that Grace arm it will be on there too. As a side note there is a group buy going on for a platter and bearing now and I just saw today someone wants to sell their dc motor and controller. I plan to build a seduction phono stage to pair with my new table.

PS: When I finish my new table I plan to keep the XA.

Mark

[Ichinichi]

Oh! DIY! 

Suggested for beginners though???

[Wayner]

Here is one of my ARs:



Ner

[Bob in St. Louis]

Oh! DIY! 

Suggested for beginners though???

Crazy Bill (the eel killer) told me about this one:
http://www.altmann.haan.de/turntable/

Looks like fun. The added bonus is that a few of the pieces are Harley Davidson Motorcycle engine components.  aa
You'd have the opportunity to puff your chest out and tell your friends, "Yea, it's got Harley parts in it". 

Dave "Hurdy Gurdy" is sending me a AR-XA with a Shure M-91ED cartridge and new tone arm wires.
It should arrive by early next week. (Gavin, you'll have a PM in a few minutes).
"What did I pay for the AR-XA", you ask?
Well, It was an even trade. I'm sending him about 75 used VHS tapes. 
Overall financial cost to me was $26 for shipping of the tapes.

Bada-Bing-Bada-Boom. I'm cool like you guys now. 
I still need to get a stylus gauge......oh, and some records, yea.....need some of those.
Scott, does your alarm company monitor your basement? Specifically your two channel room where the vinyl resides    

Bob

[woodsyi]

These seem useful and price is much better than "audiophile" grade scales.  http://www.phonopreamps.com/scales.html  Can a 100th of a gram really make a difference?  Plus, the cheaper one looks like it may be useful for other functions.  aa

[BobM]

All you really need is a digital scale that gets down to .05, or even .1 grams. There are numerous inexpensive models to choose from on e-bay and elsewhere. Shouldn't cose more that $30.

Bob

[Ichinichi]

Oh! DIY! 

Suggested for beginners though???

Crazy Bill (the eel killer) told me about this one:
http://www.altmann.haan.de/turntable/

Looks like fun. The added bonus is that a few of the pieces are Harley Davidson Motorcycle engine components.  aa
You'd have the opportunity to puff your chest out and tell your friends, "Yea, it's got Harley parts in it". 

Dave "Hurdy Gurdy" is sending me a AR-XA with a Shure M-91ED cartridge and new tone arm wires.
It should arrive by early next week. (Gavin, you'll have a PM in a few minutes).
"What did I pay for the AR-XA", you ask?
Well, It was an even trade. I'm sending him about 75 used VHS tapes. 
Overall financial cost to me was $26 for shipping of the tapes.

Bada-Bing-Bada-Boom. I'm cool like you guys now. 
I still need to get a stylus gauge......oh, and some records, yea.....need some of those.
Scott, does your alarm company monitor your basement? Specifically your two channel room where the vinyl resides    

Bob

Now Bob, what exactly is on these "used VHS tapes"? Hmmmmm???

If you can some how sneak through a window into Scott's basement I think you can get to the LPs without tripping any alarms, but he'll have to confirm that. 

I'm not sure if I have the ability to properly execute the kinds of maneuvers required by that altmann DIY turntable!

Learning about vinyl components and what they do now...by Scott's budget estimates, looks like I've got a financial project for the next year! Wonder if its possible to add a phonostage to a Jolida 102B? Anyone?

[Bob in St. Louis]

Woodsyi and Bob - Please correct me if I'm wrong, but setting a scale on the platter and making measurement wouldn't be accurate would it? Say the scale is 1.5" tall, that would have the tone arm at an unnatural angle, thereby affecting accuracy.
Right?
Or am I splitting hairs?

A co-worker of mine has one of these micro digital scales I can borrow.
Accurate to .01 gram I think. He doesn't have a turntable, he uses his scale for......um....nevermind.

Ichinichi (Ron? IIRC) - The VHS tapes are going to Hurdy Gurdy. We all know what those Celtic/Folk players like to watch.  aa
I'll leave it at that. 
Regarding the Altmann DIY: I love to DIY things, and this design appeals to me. MAYBE, someday, I'll get arround to it. If it's the woodworking that you're unable to perform, I doubt it would be much harder to fashion up a couple of them when I'm all "tooled up". If you're intersted, I can cut and laminate the wood pieces, and drill the holes for you.

Scott - THANKS for all the info. Invaluable! Is there a good place to find general info on how to set up a TT? I understand the importance of using the stylus gauge, but don't know what the wieght should even be? Plus, I don't know enough about TT's to know what questions to ask about setting one up.

Bob

[woodsyi]

Woodsyi and Bob - Please correct me if I'm wrong, but setting a scale on the platter and making measurement wouldn't be accurate would it? Say the scale is 1.5" tall, that would have the tone arm at an unnatural angle, thereby affecting accuracy.
Right?
Or am I splitting hairs?

Bob

If the scale is too tall, you can always use the sine of the angle to get the force at the "right" angle.  But it would have to be a very tall scale. 

[Wayner]

Shure stylus force gauge:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/74340

Wayner

[TONEPUB]

Here's my favorite budget combination:

The AT PL120D direct drive turntable (Technics SL1200 clone for 1/2 the price)  $200
The Zu DL103 moving coil cartridge  $400

We have a pile of great entry level phono preamps too that will be reviewed shortly,
but the new one from Todd The Vinyl Junkie is awesome, as is the Dynavector for
about 695...

Enjoy

[woodsyi]

Wayner,

My experience with Shure balance is that the hinge is not sensitive enough.  Some times it won't wiggle even when you add like .25 gram on a double scale (.5 gram).  I usually have to tap it to make sure that it's balancing on the hinge and do it at least 3 times (confirm with under and overweight)  just to feel confident that I have it right.  I prefer the digital scale. 

[TheChairGuy]

Scott - THANKS for all the info. Invaluable! Is there a good place to find general info on how to set up a TT? I understand the importance of using the stylus gauge, but don't know what the wieght should even be? Plus, I don't know enough about TT's to know what questions to ask about setting one up.

Bob

Bob - might wanna' try this one for set-up....it's quite an extensive read, but quite good: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/ttsetup.html

Don't be daunted by it's length - vinyl requires much patience, unlike plug in and play digital devices.

But, when you get the vast majority of them right, vinyl honors the music quite terrificly 

Welcome, or welcome back to vinyl pal - always here to help (ditto, Ichinichi)

Scott - you're a hero 

John / co-Fac Vinyl Circle

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thanks John. No need for the "quality of vinyl" sales pitch. You %&#@% people have already managed to suck me into your dark side.
Regarding "plug and play" digital devices.....I've not run across anything that turned out to be "plug and play".
So far they've all been a HUGE P.I.T.A. 

Regarding Scott being a hero,....well.... He's a very cool guy, but "Hero"?
He's certainly helped spend my money quite well, I'll give him that much. 
Honesty, It doesn't take anything more than to sit in his room for 10 minutes to be 100% sucked into tubes OR vinyl OR SqueezeBoxes. Take your pick.
 
I credit having tube amps in my room to Scott.
I credit having a SqueezeBox in my room to Scott.
Soon, I'll credit him for having large low RPM spinning discs in there as well.

My wife wants me to stop going to Scotts house.    Not sure why. 
Maybe cause the last time her and I went there, I showed her his Voight Pipes. 

Bob

[Wayner]

Woodsyi,

My Shure balances so sweet I can't believe it. However, if the pivots get cockeyed in the holder, it will act restrictive. Make sure that the arm foats freely and you will be within .1 grams.

Wayner

[Bob in St. Louis]

WD-40 ?  aa