Lean Sound from RM-2's

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drcruz

Lean Sound from RM-2's
« on: 30 Mar 2008, 01:23 am »
Hello All,

A co-worker and myself helped a 3rd co-worker set up a Blu-Ray HT system.

Setup:
- Used RM-2's (for mains)
- Outlaw 970 in External 7.1 mode (for 5.1 Analog volume control and no processing)
- Emotiva LPA-1 125W per channel SS amp
- Sony BDP-300 Blu-Ray player (source for movies + CD's, in 5.1 analog out)
- Mix of Blue Jean and generic cables (IC's and Speaker)

The sound is lean and I need suggestions from experienced audiophiles who just so happen to be VMPS owners. Things sound great for movies, and opera sounds incredible. For music that utilizes bass guitar, acoustical bass and bass drums the insturments are there but volume seems low.

Any suggestions. The treble pot is set to 12:00 and this toned down the brightness, the other pot (bass pot?) is maxed out. Can anything be done or does my co-worker need a new source, better cables, does he remove more puddy or is this where audiophiles start complaining about bad recordings?

Music used:
- Grand Funk Red Album
- Harry Connick Jr.'s "A Wink and a Smile" from Sleepless in Seattle movie soundtrack
- Phantom of the Opera for female voice (which sounds AWESOME on the RM-2's)

SIDE NOTE: Like I said, movies sound great, but he has a broken LRC and he's in the middle of trying to get this repaired. I told him that dialog would definitely sound more natural once that baby gets working.

Thanks in advance :)
« Last Edit: 30 Mar 2008, 07:55 pm by drcruz »

fredgarvin

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Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #1 on: 30 Mar 2008, 04:53 am »
The other pot is for the midpanels, no wonder it sounds lean! Turn em down to about 12:30 and tweak from there in 1-click increments. When you turn them to the proper range you might need to turn up the tweeters slightly. I won't bring up the putty.

drcruz

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #2 on: 30 Mar 2008, 04:57 am »
Thanks Fred, we'll give that a try.  :thumb:
« Last Edit: 30 Mar 2008, 05:19 am by drcruz »

John Casler

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #3 on: 30 Mar 2008, 04:10 pm »
The other pot is for the midpanels, no wonder it sounds lean! Turn em down to about 12:30 and tweak from there in 1-click increments. When you turn them to the proper range you might need to turn up the tweeters slightly. I won't bring up the putty.

Fred has offered the best advice and the first thing to try.

Depending on how old the speakers are they could have differing handoff from the woofers to the Midrange Panels.

His may be 166Hz (newer models are 220 - 280)

Your friend should also read the "set up" stickie here on the VMPS CIRCLE.

The L-pads (pots) adjust the volume of the tweeter and Midrange panels in relation to each other and in relation to the woofer.

Turning them down, is the same as boosting the woofers and vice versa.

Chances are the previous owner only "pinched" putty.  If it were me, I'd start by adding a good amount, like say the size of a marble (make sure and listen to a familiar bass heavy reference cut.

Heavier mass will slow the PR, and cause it to reactively produce the lower bass frequencies.  Lower bass will add a "richness" to the whole sound and might also be just what you need.

You are listening for "bass tone, richness, detail, and balance".  If you hear wooliness, fuzziness, or one note bass you need to then start pinching part of that marble you added.

DO NOT USE MULTIPLE CUTS trying to get the same detail on each.  It has to be done on a single cut.  Due to recording differences, trying to get a bad recording to match a good recording is not possible.

My favorite reference cut is by Bela Fleck and the Flectones, and is off their double CD LIVE album and is called Amazing Grace.

It has bassist Victor Wooten playing LIVE, and his playing is all over from midrange to deep bass.  You should hear incredible detail in the midrange and upper bass in this cut, and that will likely give you the balance you want.

As a second option; If your room is such that it "plays" with the frequencies at the listening position, you might also try "raising" the speaker 6" - 8" off the ground.  This reduces slightly the room gain from the floor coupling of the woofer/PR, and places the Neopanels more at ear level. 

My guess is you have "spiral ribbon" tweeters, so your ear should be at the top of the highest NeoPanel, just below the tweeter.

A similar effect, but not as good is to tilt the RM2 back slightly, so that it fires more directly to the listening position.

Take your time and don't do everything at once, so you can hear the differences the adjustments make.

drcruz

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #4 on: 30 Mar 2008, 07:58 pm »
Thanks for the advice John, my friend is pretty happy w/ the current set-up and says it's the best he's ever heard. I'm not happy w/ the bass response though and can't wait to get over there to start tweaking.  :D

drcruz

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #5 on: 1 Apr 2008, 10:20 pm »
Thanks Fred and John.  :thumb:

I tuned up my friends RM-2's and I am MUCH, MUCH happier. The adjustments to dial in the bass also had an added benefit of lowering the volume disparity between the other channels...nice, nice, nice. My friend is much happier also.

I personally like to run the pre-amp in full analog bypass, having the DVD player do all the processing (or in my friend's case, have the Blu-ray player do the processing) and run everything in Large. Since I've never heard the Outlaw 970 before, we experimented between "analog bypass and speakers in LARGE" and the more traditional "digital, bass managed signal, w/ crossover set to 80Hz". We both agreed that "analog bypass" sounded better and more natural.

Anyway, thanks again :)

John Casler

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #6 on: 1 Apr 2008, 11:07 pm »
Thanks for the advice John, my friend is pretty happy w/ the current set-up and says it's the best he's ever heard. I'm not happy w/ the bass response though and can't wait to get over there to start tweaking.  :D

One of the most fun things for me as a "hobbyist/dealer" is exactly that.

Helping someone "dial in" their system to the point that they "get" what better and audiophile grade equipment is all about.

I have a tale to tell of Sunday's Son of AMPZILLA versus NuFORCE Ref 9 v2 shoot out at a customers house in Simi Valley (he has BCSE RM40's just like mine but in Rosewood)

What a fun time that was A/B'ing those two. aa

fredgarvin

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Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #7 on: 2 Apr 2008, 01:24 am »
Glad  to hear you got it going good. One of the things I love about VMPS is the tweakability. I've changed my L pad settings a few times when changing components so I can have that magic vmps midrange. Like John mentioned, when I had the rm1's I tilted the front back about 1/4 " and it was a good tweak.

drcruz

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #8 on: 2 Apr 2008, 02:10 am »
I forgot to mention one thing...

How good Grand Funk sounded and how scary "Mozart's Requim" sounded - live presentation scary.  :thumb:

Cheers...

Housteau

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #9 on: 2 Apr 2008, 08:28 pm »
I forgot to mention one thing...

How good Grand Funk sounded ....

The Red Album is one of my favorites.

John Casler

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #10 on: 3 Apr 2008, 02:43 pm »
I forgot to mention one thing...

How good Grand Funk sounded and how scary "Mozart's Requim" sounded - live presentation scary.  :thumb:

Cheers...

The RM2 is a HIGHLY UNDERATED speaker.

Not to long ago there was a thread running here about a search for a HIGH QUALITY speaker that hit 30Hz for $2000.

The general opinion was that no such speaker existed.

The RM2jr, will produce in the region of 20Hz for $1999!!! with exceptional fidelity.

Your Friend made a good move. :thumb:

Housteau

Re: Lean Sound from RM-2's
« Reply #11 on: 3 Apr 2008, 03:57 pm »
The RM2 is a HIGHLY UNDERATED speaker.

Sadly I think the same can be said for many in the VMPS line.  The majority of the audiophile world seems completely unaware of what VMPS has to offer today.  At least when I mention the name I usually get a response that tells me these fellows are many years behind in the times, and don't have a clue about the current state of the art designs.